View Full Version : Cache Hiding Ethics



brdad
05-28-2006, 06:21 AM
This post is motivated by caches I have done in the past and a few I have heard about and have been on my mind. A few descriptions I have altered to protect the cache from being spoiled. A few have been done by people I have met and like, and nothing stated here is anything personally against them. But some hiding practices just don't set well with me.

When do we go too far in hiding caches?

We've all encountered a rock wall that we worry has been compromised by cachers looking, moving stones to verify a cache is not hidden behind it.

Ever seen those plastic information signs, often screwed to the top of a post? Imagine a log sheet in a ziplock, under that sign, and you have to unscrew the screws holding the sign to find and access it.

How about a steel barrier post, in which the cap has to be pulled off or setscrews loosened to access the cache, and the cache is glued to the underside of the cap.

And then there is the multi cemetery cache, in which one of the stages takes you right to a tombstone. Not feeling right about it, but quite certian you are right, you lift of the top piece of the tombstone, revealing coordinates written underneath.

And then there is the light pole/electrical access box cache. Weren't any of us taught to always treat such devices as live and not open them?

How about taking a bolt out of a bridge, taking it home, and modiifing it to hold a logbook? The finder would also have to unsrcew the bolt to sign the log.

Finding these types of caches dampens my excitement in finding them. They can be very clever, but should be we tampering with stuff that does not belong to us?

I dont think we should be placing caches were we have to remove parts of equipment not intended to be removed. Not only will it likely loosen the parts, but it encourages cachers to tear things apart at the next cache when they don't spot it in the correct location.

In the case of the tombstone, you are risking dropping and breaking it, and what if it's the wrong stone? And still, we're encouraging a cacher to assume they have to do that at the next cache. We have done one cemetery cache where the final was in a bucket of flowers at the grave site, but at least they made it quite clear in the description what we were looking for.

As far as the light poles / electrical boxes (and I don't want to discuss the lameness factor here), we are taught not to tamper with electrical equipment, and try to teach out kids the same. Yet, we will take them to get a cache in one. Suppose they will think every electrical box or light pole they come to has a cache?

So how much is too much? Or is it just me?

dí76
05-28-2006, 06:52 AM
Yah the cemetery was to much. Inside the cemetery in my eyes is always off limits, I thought that GC.com even states that. I just read GC,com guide lines and they say :Caches that deface public or private property, whether a natural or man-made object, in order to provide a clue or a logging method.
Caches placed on archaeological or historical sites. In most cases these areas are highly sensitive to the extra traffic that would be caused by vehicles and humans. So I think the the cemeteries fall here. I dont beleive it is ever a good idea to take bolts out of something to hide a cache. I have seen a couple of great micros in the past 2 months that have changed my perspective about them. Most of the ones I have done havent really impressed me, but I must say that laughing terrys are very cool. Even a couple of them that might fall into what you are talking about here. As for the places that we shouldn't be taking apart things to find them. Well, I think that the owner should make that clear in there cache page. However we as cachers should be smart enough to know when to much is just to much and walk away. After that you could send a note to the reveiwer and I'm sure he will have something to say about it. He has been great everytime I have contacted him.

team teebow
05-28-2006, 07:07 AM
brdad I couldn't agree more!!! Gone are the days when caches brought you to senic places, places in your own back yard that you never knew existed. It would be tough today to make one of your scenic cd's from a lot of the new caches. Just how many guardrails and light poles can you photograph before they all become the same?

Team Teebow

WhereRWe?
05-28-2006, 07:23 AM
And then there all those caches that seem to be springing up on private property - against gc.com rules. We've even run into a couple of caches that are INSIDE stores - unknown to the store owners! :eek: :eek:

In one case we had to go into a library and ask the librarian for the cache.

team teebow
05-28-2006, 07:30 AM
The one in the store had to have been in the micro-brew aisle...:D Hiram you forgot to tell WhereRWe about that waypoint didn't you.....:eek:

WhereRWe?
05-28-2006, 08:31 AM
The one in the store had to have been in the micro-brew aisle...:D Hiram you forgot to tell WhereRWe about that waypoint didn't you.....:eek:

Actually, I mis-spoke. It wasn't a store, it was a restaurant. The lobby of a Cracker Barrel restaurant! LOL!

team teebow
05-28-2006, 08:35 AM
Sorry Hiram, I hope I did not let the cat out of the bag on your beer waypoint.:D

Kacky
05-28-2006, 09:30 AM
Common sense would dictate that even if it's in a public place, if the custodian of that place would say "no", then you wouldn't do it. The dilemma for me is whether I would keep searching for a cache that is questionable like that.

firefighterjake
05-29-2006, 05:33 AM
I've got three caches "at" a cemetery. In two of the cases however the cemeteries are rarely used (old ones) and the cache is right outside of the cemetery so cachers should have no need to be poking around headstones and turning up the earth in the cemetery . . . and it should go without saying that if for some reason someone is there paying respects to a relative or if there is a graveside service going on (although rare) one would hope the cacher would respect this and move on to another cache.

I only have one cache that is in a cemetery . . . but it brings the cacher to a stone where they use the read out from gc.com to answer some specific questions to get the coords for the physical cache located some distance away. This cache was also done specifically in memory of the four people who died that day.

This said, I have been very fortunate to not encounter most of what you mentioned Brdad . . . if what you say is happening it truly is not a good thing for the State of Maine and the geocaching experience in general.

Now, Laughing Terry's In Plain Sight caches on the other hand and your Old 470 cache are classics -- they frustrate me to no end, but cause no damage to the structures, blend in seamlessly and require no tool to access . . . plus I suspect one of LT's caches may be improving the cache area thanks to his donation.

brdad
05-29-2006, 08:00 AM
Personally, I don't dissaprove of cemetery caches if done tastefully. If I am buried there and have no consiousness and someone walks by, then I don't care. And if I do have conciousness, I'm glad people come to visit me since I'd have a hard time getting around then. :D

I've only done one right in plain sight cache, and have no problem with that since it can be found with no damage to the structure, and as I recall, the description implies somethign of that nature.

WhereRWe?
05-29-2006, 08:12 AM
Personally, I don't dissaprove of cemetery caches if done tastefully. If I am buried there and have no consiousness and someone walks by, then I don't care. And if I do have conciousness, I'm glad people come to visit me since I'd have a hard time getting around then. :D


LOL! Excellently stated, Dave! :D :D

parmachenee
05-29-2006, 09:06 AM
Brdad has many good points here. It also seems we are reading in the logs about more encounters with police/authorities because of the placement of caches which is not doing the geocaching community any good either. The face of geocaching is changing for me. The very popular cache now being put out for those who choose to do it seems to be the trend. I drove by at least twenty of these yesterday but I don't choose to do them. That's my choice though. Right now, there are still enough caches that appeal to me to keep me interested. When we run out of those, I have the choice of either giving up caching or changing the way I feel. But again that's my choice. If a cache seems to be placed in a manner that defies gc rules...don't do it. That's also your choice.

WhereRWe?
05-29-2006, 12:13 PM
It also seems we are reading in the logs about more encounters with police/authorities

We've only had one "encounter" with the police, and that was in Canada when we came out of the woods to find a provincial policeman looking over our car. He thought that it might have been stolen in Maine and then abandoned.

But he was very nice once we explained what we were doing, and I think we have convinced him to start geocaching! (He even helped us on directions to a couple of more locations in the area where there were caches.) :D :D

Kacky
05-29-2006, 05:31 PM
Personally, I don't dissaprove of cemetery caches if done tastefully. If I am buried there and have no consiousness and someone walks by, then I don't care. And if I do have conciousness, I'm glad people come to visit me since I'd have a hard time getting around then. :D


On the other hand, if I were planting flowers by someone's grave and some rowdy cachers came through, or if I were at the grave of someone dear who had just passed away and anyone came through who appeared to be playing a game, I would feel like they were depriving me of something. True, many of us grieve while the world goes on around us, but I hope most people wouldn't deliberately be rude while someone is deep in reflection or trying to sort out their feelings.

brdad
05-29-2006, 06:40 PM
On the other hand, if I were planting flowers by someone's grave and some rowdy cachers came through, or if I were at the grave of someone dear who had just passed away and anyone came through who appeared to be playing a game, I would feel like they were depriving me of something. True, many of us grieve while the world goes on around us, but I hope most people wouldn't deliberately be rude while someone is deep in reflection or trying to sort out their feelings.

Correct, but this would be more of an issue of a cache finder ethics, not cache hider ethics. Once hopes if any cacher approaches a cache and there are people nearby doing anything, he will do his/her best to let the muggles continue on undisturbed even if it meant postponing his find.

Trezurs*-R-*Fun
05-29-2006, 06:45 PM
On the other hand, if I were planting flowers by someone's grave and some rowdy cachers came through, or if I were at the grave of someone dear who had just passed away and anyone came through who appeared to be playing a game, I would feel like they were depriving me of something. True, many of us grieve while the world goes on around us, but I hope most people wouldn't deliberately be rude while someone is deep in reflection or trying to sort out their feelings.

LOL!!! Rowdy Cachers strikes me as slightly "off the mark." I've yet to see "rowdy", even at an event. Your post though is right on the mark about being respectful and considerate towards others feeling, both at and away from cemetaries.

brdad
05-29-2006, 06:51 PM
LOL!!! Rowdy Cachers strikes me as slightly "off the mark." I've yet to see "rowdy", even at an event. Your post though is right on the mark about being respectful and considerate towards others feeling, both at and away from cemetaries.

Obviously you weren't at the wings and beer event to see haffy in action then. You ain't seen rowdy until you've seen haffy on a tear! :D

DiverDave1998
05-29-2006, 06:57 PM
how about the one tied to a cow i went twice to this cache and i don't know if i was at the right place or not but if i was the farmer knew nothing about it and he sure didn't want corn in with his cows since he has an organtic farm this guy was so pissed i thought i was gona get shot at the kreabs farm in starks . and i still don't know if it was at the right farm .

Hiram357
05-29-2006, 07:03 PM
how about the one tied to a cow i went twice to this cache and i don't know if i was at the right place or not but if i was the farmer knew nothing about it and he sure didn't want corn in with his cows since he has an organtic farm this guy was so pissed i thought i was gona get shot at the kreabs farm in starks . and i still don't know if it was at the right farm .
What cache was that!?!?!!?

dí76
05-29-2006, 07:22 PM
What cache was that!?!?!!?

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?guid=2aa1958c-d9fd-48bf-ad8d-90cd1b93b4bf

DiverDave1998
05-29-2006, 07:45 PM
the bessie cache

brdad
05-29-2006, 09:07 PM
I think you'll find that the bessie cache is an attempt at humor, since moving caches are no longer allowed.

parmachenee
05-29-2006, 09:10 PM
I think you'll find that the bessie cache is an attempt at humor, since moving caches are no longer allowed.

It's been moving my stomach muscles quite a lot.:D

Kacky
05-29-2006, 10:43 PM
Obviously you weren't at the wings and beer event to see haffy in action then. You ain't seen rowdy until you've seen haffy on a tear! :D

Rowdy's a bad choice of words. Boisterous, maybe, or just laughing and talking a lot. Stuff you wouldn't do in a cemetery if anyone else was there.

LaughingTerry
05-30-2006, 09:28 AM
I think you'll find that the bessie cache is an attempt at humor, since moving caches are no longer allowed.

attempt? ATTEMPT??????

I don't attempt humor, I beat it into submission. LOL
(I certainly hope DiverDaves comments and e-mail to me were made "tongue in cheek")

Now as for my "Right in Plain Sight" caches, everything was either picked up on my own property or bought and paid for, then modified for the cache and placed. "IV" has indeed contributed to the area being cleaned up because there was a lot of trash around there when I placed the cache but because of geocachers the place has really been cleaned up a lot.

To me the spirit of Caching is to do no harm when placing or hunting caches and to be respectful of others. I won't place a cemetary cache because some people are very sensitive about the area where the used up bodies of their loved ones are buried.
The way things are since 9/11 it's easy to understand why bridges and other sensitive areas like power plants are off limits.
Now if I am hunting a cache in the woods I don't see any difference between me tromping through the woods and deer, moose, or hunters tromping through the woods. I would think I have just as much right to do that as they do since I live here too. LOL

team teebow
05-30-2006, 09:55 AM
attempt? ATTEMPT??????

I don't attempt humor, I beat it into submission. LOL
(I certainly hope DiverDaves comments and e-mail to me were made "tongue in cheek")

Now as for my "Right in Plain Sight" caches, everything was either picked up on my own property or bought and paid for, then modified for the cache and placed. "IV" has indeed contributed to the area being cleaned up because there was a lot of trash around there when I placed the cache but because of geocachers the place has really been cleaned up a lot.

To me the spirit of Caching is to do no harm when placing or hunting caches and to be respectful of others. I won't place a cemetary cache because some people are very sensitive about the area where the used up bodies of their loved ones are buried.
The way things are since 9/11 it's easy to understand why bridges and other sensitive areas like power plants are off limits.
Now if I am hunting a cache in the woods I don't see any difference between me tromping through the woods and deer, moose, or hunters tromping through the woods. I would think I have just as much right to do that as they do since I live here too. LOL

LaughingTerry,

You quote " To me the spirit of Caching is to do no harm".... so far your caches have beat, bruised, and warped what little brain I have. Keep it up!!!! :D

Team Teebow

Sudonim
05-30-2006, 11:34 AM
LaughingTerry,

You quote " To me the spirit of Caching is to do no harm".... so far your caches have beat, bruised, and warped what little brain I have. Keep it up!!!! :D

Team Teebow


That's not beating, bruising and warping, it's called exercising!
And believe me, he's exercised mine plenty:eek:

WhereRWe?
05-30-2006, 04:22 PM
The way things are since 9/11 it's easy to understand why bridges and other sensitive areas like power plants are off limits.


We were real uncomfortable lately doing a cache right at the end of the runway of the Bangor Airport! We could just see flashing lights heading in our direction as we rooted around the brush the the end of a MILITARY flight line. :(

But a find is a find! :D :D

hollora
05-30-2006, 11:58 PM
Right on brdad - "tastefully done" - key words! Cemetaries are fascinating places with a great amount of historical data here. I recently scouted one locally.

There are web gen folks gnashing at the bit to have folks transcribe headstone information and publish on the web. There might be a potential partnership here (lots of us had lap tops). There are many "lost" cemetaries in Maine. Small private ones which are literally "in the woods".

Jake has a point too about not necessarily the location but the thought. If part of the excercise/game is to memoralize someone and that is well stated in the cache, if I was in the ground there I wouldn't mind.

Agreed too, many caches seem to take you beyond the edge. Those that; seem to be beyond what we know is right safety wise (both electrical and water - wading a stream is not for me - and I am sure there are more examples), hidden with clue(s) that are truly not relevant or even half way dechiperable, coordinates which are way off and in places that really only elevate your numbers but do nothing for your knowledge of the area or do not provide you with something scenic or to do.

Again - JMO (Just My Opinion) Thanks for the forum!