View Full Version : Should we form a Geocaching Maine Organization?



attroll
07-07-2006, 10:00 PM
I have discussed this with several geocachers in PMs and emails the topic is our web site and starting an organization. I was just asking a few opinions on this. I know sooner or later a rumor may start saying I was trying to organize an organization. So I am stepping forward now before the rumor starts or someone puts a twist to it. I was not trying to start an organization. I asked a few geocachers the following questions:

I am writing to you to get your opinion on whether or not you think we should become an organization? Do we truely want monthly meetings and dues? I feel that we really do not need to be anything more than we are Geocachers!! I would like to hear your opinion on this.

So instead of asking the few people I was sending messages to I thought it would be better to include everyone in the question, like it should have been done in the first place. I apologize for not doing this.

Here is the vote, Keep in mind you can only vote once and read the rules for responding to this thread before you respond.

RULES FOR RESPONDING
Please respond with appropriate and legitimate answers and stay on topic.
This has nothing to do with MGA so do not refer to them at all or reference them because this pertains to us. If you reference them your response will be deleted.

attroll
07-07-2006, 10:01 PM
Now that I have started this vote and response area I would like to give my ideas on this.

I see no reason why we need to create an organization. If you think about it right now we are already pretty much an organization with the web site holding us together. We stay in contact with each other and that is what an organization does. We usually have caching events pretty much at a rate of once a month through out the year and sometimes more. These events are organized geocaching events and in my opinion what I consider our organization.

Even though we are already registered with the IRS as a nonprofit organization I see no need to actually form a group of board members. If we did what purpose would they serve? Everything we need to accomplish can be done in the web site forums and be put to a vote there. I see no reason to charge for membership fees. What would the money go towards? There is a donation area on the web siteís front page that you can use to donate to the web site. When you do this it goes toward the server cost and the software renewal fees. Any extra money stays on hand in the geocachingmaine paypal account and if we ever accumulate any money that become a substantial amount then we will post it in the forums and vote on what we want to do with it.

Well that is all that I can think of at this time. If I have any more to say I will post it as I think of it.

The G Team
07-07-2006, 10:11 PM
Rick, I'll vote "NO". I've been involved with other activities that brought together a loose knit group on an ad hoc basis. With time, the idea for an organized club seemed to be a good idea. We ended up with a full corporation, and a budget in the multi-thousands of dollars. It became a business, and really ended up not being anywhere near as fun as the "let's all get together this weekend" type events we had previously had. Over time, we got in trouble with the IRS, club funds were mis-managed, and the club finally disbanded with many hard feelings. I therefore vote to keep the status quo--we're having fun the way things are and I see no reason to change. Just MHO, of course.

Hiram357
07-07-2006, 10:12 PM
I'm not really decided right now... seriously, it's geocaching... have we ever needed such things to govern us in the past? are the gc.com guidelines not enough? Do we really need to spend money on a membership card that says we belong? We all have our own ideas about geocaching, we all play in different ways, that's the beautiful thing about geocaching, it's like driving, you go to driving school and learn the basics, then you're on your own. everyone has their own ways to drive, sometimes we like the way people drive, sometimes we dont, but we govern (most of us do) ourselves when we drive... it works out pretty good that way, everyone has an understanding of the way things work and it just falls into place (like the traffic circles). If the site was turned into an organization I probably wouldn't join (I pay too many dues for other things already, I donate to the site because I enjoy it, and I want to see it continue) I cache for enjoyment, to get away from everything, geocaching is my escape, I don't want it cluttered up with meetings and dues and other stuff like that. So that's my two cents. :D

Hiram357
07-07-2006, 10:13 PM
I therefore vote to keep the status quo--we're having fun the way things are and I see no reason to change.

ya know I could've saved a lot of time typing my response if you would've been a little quicker so I could just quoted this and been done with it. :D

dí76
07-07-2006, 10:55 PM
God no. No more rules!!!!!!!!!!:D

Mainelyroses
07-07-2006, 11:39 PM
My vote is a very emphatic NO! I don't SAY alot in this forum, but I read it almost every day....and enjoy everyone's personalities...good, bad and indifferent. I am a donating member, but I don't want to HAVE to pay. I pay because it's a fun group of people and I want to help pay Rick's expenses. I don't want to pay just to have someone write up a bunch of rules.:D :rolleyes:

Hiram357
07-07-2006, 11:45 PM
My vote is a very emphatic NO! I don't SAY alot in this forum, but I read it almost every day....and enjoy everyone's personalities...good, bad and indifferent. I am a donating member, but I don't want to HAVE to pay. I pay because it's a fun group of people and I want to help pay Rick's expenses. I don't want to pay just to have someone write up a bunch of rules.:D :rolleyes:

ditto, if I want someone to yell at me and tell me i'm caching the wrong way... i'll just bring the wife with me. :eek: :D :rolleyes:

Smitty & Co.
07-07-2006, 11:46 PM
My vote is a very emphatic NO! I don't SAY alot in this forum, but I read it almost every day....and enjoy everyone's personalities...good, bad and indifferent. I am a donating member, but I don't want to HAVE to pay. I pay because it's a fun group of people and I want to help pay Rick's expenses. I don't want to pay just to have someone write up a bunch of rules.:D :rolleyes:

Well said!:) I wholeheartedly agree. :D

J_Cyr
07-07-2006, 11:58 PM
YES!

Just kidding....

I like the "just geocaching term" Put me down for a grand ol' NO... Thanks.

brdad
07-08-2006, 04:18 AM
I don't see how we can do anything as an organization better than we can do as the group we are right now. If a problem or a need arises in the geocaching community, we can discuss what needs to be done as a group, and get together a few willing cachers to see that the job gets done. And the more members we include in these decisions, the more that decision reflects on the Maine geocaching community as a whole, and it uses the maximum resources we have available to us.

vicbiker
07-08-2006, 05:49 AM
I know personally,Ive always stay away from organizations because of all the rules and the politics that are involved.We all know people that belong to volunteer fire departments,rescue squads, American Legion,etc.,good freinds that because of the rules no longer speak to one another.That shouldn't be us!!!

Mainiac1957
07-08-2006, 07:17 AM
I thought THE place to go for geocaching in Maine has and always will be "The woods":rolleyes:

WhereRWe?
07-08-2006, 07:35 AM
I thought THE place to go for geocaching in Maine has and always will be "The woods":rolleyes:

OK, wise guy, good point! LOL! (I've made the comment clearer.) :p :p

parmachenee
07-08-2006, 08:14 AM
God no. No more rules!!!!!!!!!!:D

I don't think I have to elaborate too much on this.:D

Trezurs*-R-*Fun
07-08-2006, 08:17 AM
I would like to have seen some form of official organization here that would have given the folks here a united voice, a united front againt any adversity. By organization I don't think there is a need to dictate how we cache but a place for the non-geocaching community to interface with us.
This is our chance to put a name forward, an elected person(s), that we could put out in the public to promote caching and be the liaison for answering question. Rick does answer question regarding the forums and does a fantastic job!! My desire to organize is not a reflection on these forums as I think these forums are awesome!!!!

Some States have banned geocaching and we should take the preemptive measures to have a united front for just such an event (or similar event). This may never happen but if it does we here will be reliant on the officially organized groups to represent us. These forum are great and I never want to say otherwise but if we want to stop non-geocaching restrains on us then we need to be organized in the event something like the above happens. If we wait to organize then it will be to late and our only option will be to back the "other" organization to protect geocaching.

Many folks here think an organization is about the dues and the rules. It doesn't have to be that way. Firstly, let me say that these forum DO have rules (look at the user agreement) and the donation button, without it the cost is shifted to Attroll who does a great job and shouldn't be burdened with the cost. This reminds me of a Tim Sample phrasology, " You can put a kitten in an oven but that won't make it a bisquit." Dues / donation , Rules/User agreement, there is little difference in my opinion. I chose to make a donation and I would chose to pay dues. I chose to abide by the user agreement and I would abide by the rules.

I also wanted to mention that with all the private land trust and preserve that we place our caches on, that I would think having one person represent Maine geocaching and getting official permission to place caches on their property is better than having individuals. One of my reasons is the commitment an organization would show versus an individual. By putting GeocachingMaine.org signature on the permission slip shows that all member feel that way about using their property. We all know that some cachers lose interest in the sport (I can't fathom that but.....); if that indiviidual had permission to cache on a certain piece of property, he/she takes that permission with them when they leave the sport. While individuals come and go the organization would be perpetual and keep the permission for all geocachers.

I hope people can stop and see the trees though the forest. An organization is not a negative thing. There does not have to be more restrictive rules and dues can still be a donation. Even this site shows priviledge by donation with a "members only" thread. This site could be kept free but dues paying members could help set policy that will help guide Maine Geocachers well into the future. That doesn't mean that a donating member would not listen to the general opinions of all geocachers, rather I would hope that they would.

Meetings don't have to be monthly. They could be annually or even per deim if that is how the organization is outlined. This doesn't have to be a business even though some feel that it will be. There are many super large organzitions that only meet 4 time a year, the one I'm familiar with would be the Safari Club, they do lots to promote themselves but don't limit the activity of their members at all.

Everyday there are more folks entering geocaching. The numbers of people out there will increase public perception of us, either good or bad, and I think we need to be prepared to deal with that. I don't think organizing should be viewed as a way to contain geocachers rather as a way to promote our sport with one loud voice instead of many whispered voices. We have the opportunity to do good things beyond these forums and will only be able to do that if we can show that we are united.


IMHO

Cache On!!!!!

Hiker Twins
07-08-2006, 09:32 AM
Why fix something that "ain't" broke! I like it just the way it is!
Twin 2 of Hiker Twins

Cache'n Jacksons
07-08-2006, 10:10 AM
I generally stay out of these discussions, but I like the freedom and flexibility of the way things are right now. I think an organization adds a level of complexity that doesn't exist now, and I think it's great this way.

There are two types of people... those that group people into categories, and those that don't. I belong to the latter.

brdad
07-08-2006, 08:19 PM
I also wanted to mention that with all the private land trust and preserve that we place our caches on, that I would think having one person represent Maine geocaching and getting official permission to place caches on their property is better than having individuals. One of my reasons is the commitment an organization would show versus an individual. By putting GeocachingMaine.org signature on the permission slip shows that all member feel that way about using their property. We all know that some cachers lose interest in the sport (I can't fathom that but.....); if that indiviidual had permission to cache on a certain piece of property, he/she takes that permission with them when they leave the sport. While individuals come and go the organization would be perpetual and keep the permission for all geocachers.

Would it be any different if we appoint one or two people in our group to represent us as cachers for a particular land trust? And another one or two in another area that may need to be represented? Can't issues be discussed here as easily as they could at meetings, so that anyone interested can voice their thoughts and ideas? Does our word mean any more if we are an organization than if we are member of geocachingmaine.org speaking as a group?

MoxieMan
07-08-2006, 08:42 PM
I'd never join a group or orginization that would accept me anyway...

ok, maybe I would, but I don't think we need to "orginize"

Trezurs*-R-*Fun
07-08-2006, 08:54 PM
Would it be any different if we appoint one or two people in our group to represent us as cachers for a particular land trust? And another one or two in another area that may need to be represented? Can't issues be discussed here as easily as they could at meetings, so that anyone interested can voice their thoughts and ideas? Does our word mean any more if we are an organization than if we are member of geocachingmaine.org speaking as a group?

The short answer is yes, in my opinion. An association or organization is structured and organization and structure is important in defining commitment. For example, if you were looking for answers to lets say the benefits of CPR in post cardiacarrest victims, would you seek your answers from a forum of loosely group parties that have little to no vested interest or would you goto the AHA (American Heart Association) that has proven its commitment.
These forum offer great information but lack a unified voice. We all have an idea of what geocaching should be but how do we pursue one agenda when several will be presented. We don't speak with one voice and as a result their has already been some folks that have splintered off and formed there own organization. When new cachers come along and see forums versus organization, especially one with the name MGA, I believe they will first look to the MGA for answers. This will further weaken these forums in the long run.

You asked me a question now let me pose one. How would organizing these forums hurt them or change them? Would it be so detrimental to have many voices internally but speak out publicly with one voice?

We can debate this back and forth all day long. I don't disagree with the folks here but what I'm afraid of is that when it comes time for policy that effect geocaching in the state of Maine, this group of folk will not have a voice. It will be hard to go to a policy/lawmaker and say, "we at the forums decided....", whereas the MGA will be able to say, "We have x number of vested members who have decided this is the course of action......" I understand that anything like that is a big if, but what if. I don't know which state it is but I'm under the understanding that geocaching is banned on all public property there. Who were the opposing parties to that law. Was there an organized group opposed to that legislation? I don't know the answers. On the other hand I don't see how organizing would be dangerous to these forums. We all donate and we all abide by rules set forth in the user agreement. The only thing lacking is the structure of an official organization/association.

Cache On!!!!

Hiram357
07-08-2006, 08:57 PM
The short answer is yes, in my opinion. An association or organization is structured and organization and structure is important in defining commitment. For example, if you were looking for answers to lets say the benefits of CPR in post cardiacarrest victims, would you seek your answers from a forum of loosely group parties that have little to no vested interest or would you goto the AHA (American Heart Association) that has proven its commitment.
These forum offer great information but lack a unified voice. We all have an idea of what geocaching should be but how do we pursue one agenda when several will be presented. We don't speak with one voice and as a result their has already been some folks that have splintered off and formed there own organization. When new cachers come along and see forums versus organization, especially one with the name MGA, I believe they will first look to the MGA for answers. This will further weaken these forums in the long run.

You asked me a question now let me pose one. How would organizing these forums hurt them or change them? Would it be so detrimental to have many voices internally but speak out publicly with one voice?

We can debate this back and forth all day long. I don't disagree with the folks here but what I'm afraid of is that when it comes time for policy that effect geocaching in the state of Maine, this group of folk will not have a voice. It will be hard to go to a policy/lawmaker and say, "we at the forums decided....", whereas the MGA will be able to say, "We have x number of vested members who have decided this is the course of action......" I understand that anything like that is a big if, but what if. I don't know which state it is but I'm under the understanding that geocaching is banned on all public property there. Who were the opposing parties to that law. Was there an organized group opposed to that legislation? I don't know the answers. On the other hand I don't see how organizing would be dangerous to these forums. We all donate and we all abide by rules set forth in the user agreement. The only thing lacking is the structure of an official organization/association.

Cache On!!!!

you are begining to slightly sway my opinion... I'll have to cache on those thoughts for a few days.

WhereRWe?
07-09-2006, 06:25 AM
These forum offer great information but lack a unified voice. We all have an idea of what geocaching should be but how do we pursue one agenda when several will be presented. We don't speak with one voice and as a result their has already been some folks that have splintered off and formed there own organization. When new cachers come along and see forums versus organization, especially one with the name MGA, I believe they will first look to the MGA for answers. This will further weaken these forums in the long run.

You asked me a question now let me pose one. How would organizing these forums hurt them or change them? Would it be so detrimental to have many voices internally but speak out publicly with one voice?



Sheesh! VERY well stated! Thanks. :D :D

And I again emphazise, that an organization does not have to be so formal as to have actual meetings. The "meetings" can be right here. And why would be need "officers"? We could have a poll and select 2-3 people to serve as spokesmen for the group - if it were required.

I think the idea needs to be thought out instead of a "no rules!" gut reaction.

IMHO... :) :)

brdad
07-09-2006, 06:40 AM
For example, if you were looking for answers to lets say the benefits of CPR in post cardiacarrest victims, would you seek your answers from a forum of loosely group parties that have little to no vested interest or would you goto the AHA (American Heart Association) that has proven its commitment.

While in this example I most likely would choose the AHA, I don't think being an organization instantly proves your commitment. Only time can prove that, whether we are an official organization or not. And we do not have to be, nor do I think we are just a loosely grouped party. We are geocaching Maine, a group of cachers deciding what's best for Maine, just like we are doing in this thread.


These forum offer great information but lack a unified voice. We all have an idea of what geocaching should be but how do we pursue one agenda when several will be presented. We don't speak with one voice and as a result their has already been some folks that have splintered off and formed there own organization.

I said in my previous post we could appoint people to represent us as one. Even in our government we appoint people to represent many, and half the time they voice their own opinion rather than the that of the whole. This can happen whether we stick with that we have or we are an organization. Either way, it would have to be policed by the rest of us, and if the appointed person(s) didn't follow through, we would have to appoint someone else.


You asked me a question now let me pose one. How would organizing these forums hurt them or change them? Would it be so detrimental to have many voices internally but speak out publicly with one voice?

I must admit I can't answer this one well. Mostly because I'm not sure how the politics of an organization seem to change things, but I know it often does. But it does seem like we want the end result; To have individuals speak for us as geocaching Maine. And I am not against that at all. But we can appoint those people as we are. Rick could even adda section on the site of people to contact if they have such questions for us. Perhaps you? Haffy? Someone else?

brdad
07-09-2006, 06:43 AM
Sheesh! VERY well stated! Thanks. :D :D

And I again emphazise, that an organization does not have to be so formal as to have actual meetings. The "meetings" can be right here. And why would be need "officers"? We could have a poll and select 2-3 people to serve as spokesmen for the group - if it were required.

I think the idea needs to be thought out instead of a "no rules!" gut reaction.

IMHO... :) :)

Well, I guess this is where I get confused as to the where what we have stops and an organization begins....
Again, it appears we are looking for similar end results.
Perhaps the poll should be "Should we appoint a few persons to represent us when needed and to be added as a contact on the web site?"
Or do we need more trhan that?

parmachenee
07-09-2006, 07:33 AM
On the other hand I don't see how organizing would be dangerous to these forums. We all donate and we all abide by rules set forth in the user agreement. The only thing lacking is the structure of an official organization/association.

Cache On!!!!

Having been a teacher for 35 years, I KNOW the importance of rules.:) My comments about "no rules" is of course facetious. ;) I'm talking more about unnecessary rules. AUP's have become a necessity with the advent of the internet to protect the websites and webmasters so we accept them. You raise some good points about having an official organization/association. As has been said before though, having meetings is difficult to get a good representation attending. Doing them here allows more members to participate which also allows for a much greater input and variety of ideas. Look how this thread has evolved. Keep the discussion going. I think we are making progress.:)

WhereRWe?
07-09-2006, 07:45 AM
Again, it appears we are looking for similar end results.
Perhaps the poll should be "Should we appoint a few persons to represent us when needed and to be added as a contact on the web site?"
Or do we need more trhan that?

Right now we have a web site where cachers go to discuss geocaching (or beer drinking, or whatever). Great site, so mistake in that. But it's basically an open forum - no more. Having a name as an organization legitimizes us an an entity.

And I do like your suggestion... :D :D

dí76
07-09-2006, 07:56 AM
So what is going to change. I voted No way for this since the beggining becuase I never liked the idea, it always seemed like there would just be more guide lines. Do this, dont do that, meet here meet there, send money for this send money for that. If its not geocaching dont talk about it here, dont tell jokes, stay on topic. If we can have the meetings right here and the politics can be discussded here and the dues stay the way they are, than whats to loose. I would be interested in seeing where this is going.:)

dí76
07-09-2006, 07:59 AM
Sheesh! VERY well stated! Thanks. :D :D

And I again emphazise, that an organization does not have to be so formal as to have actual meetings. The "meetings" can be right here. And why would be need "officers"? We could have a poll and select 2-3 people to serve as spokesmen for the group - if it were required.

I think the idea needs to be thought out instead of a "no rules!" gut reaction.

IMHO... :) :)

I think that this could work...

But lets not make this to complicated. I would hate to appoint 2-3 folks to take care of some of the stuff and then end up with a whole government and that could be the end result with out meaning to have it go that far.

So great idea to keep talking about this.:)

Quoddy
07-09-2006, 08:25 AM
I believe that the question, as written, was slanted in a very negative way. Just over a year ago the cachers that I'm closest associated with formed a Northern New Jersey Cachers organization. This wasn't done to place rules and guidelines on cachers, but rather to speak as a group to forestry, wildlife, and park managers. This, indeed, has worked out well. It's much better speaking as a group as opposed to "I'm Joe Geocacher and I think you should consider this".

The group in it's first year has had many functions, charitable (almost $20,000 from coin sales and donations), social, and the primary as described above. There have been no rules for geocachers or dues adopted or even considered. Looking back I'm amazed at the things the group has managed to do, support, and change. It will take active and dedicated officers to accomplish this for any other group too, but the results have been gratifying. Think about it, and don't dismiss it as a rule forming committee as seems to be the theme of this thread.

Hiram357
07-09-2006, 09:02 AM
I think I would be all for appointing persons to represent caching. When I first started working with the Kennebec Land Trust I mustve been asked about 20 times about a geocaching organization, and the only answer I could give was... well, we meet on the trails and the internet. It would be nice PR to have some place to refer people too.

Haffy
07-09-2006, 10:35 AM
I agree with what Quoddy and Hiram has said. When I found out about a few caches in the Boothby Region not being maintained, I approached them and asked them if they would be willing to adopt the caches. I gave them the cache owners name and email address and they took it upon themselves to go through the proper channels to be able to adopt all of the caches that were on the BRLT preserves. They now have full control over all of the caches on their land trusts and they can't be happier about it. I just wish at the time that we would have had a go to person that could have directed them to the proper people,as it was I took it upon myself to guide them in what I had hoped would be the proper ettique and channels to go through. I hoped that I succeeded. And the cache owner even thanked me afterwards for the steps that were taken for this to happen. If we decide to go about this organization thing then it at least would be a good idea to ask for a few people who would be responsible enough to help out when the needs arose for a situation as this.

Hiram357
07-09-2006, 11:59 AM
Perhaps we should re-phrase the voting poll and ask again?

The G Team
07-09-2006, 02:08 PM
Yes, the formation of something like this "organization" for informational purposes, for want of a better term would be sensible. It is when folks start talking dues, bylaws, club houses, merchandise sales, etc. that warning flags should go up.

attroll
07-09-2006, 03:07 PM
Yes, the formation of something like this "organization" for informational purposes, for want of a better term would be sensible. It is when folks start talking dues, bylaws, club houses, merchandise sales, etc. that warning flags should go up.

I concure with that.

brdad
07-09-2006, 03:35 PM
Ditto and more ditto

WhereRWe?
07-09-2006, 03:42 PM
Great minds think alike! :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

attroll
07-09-2006, 04:00 PM
Let me get this straight. All most people are saying is that we need to assign a representative for the group and that should be it?

brdad
07-09-2006, 04:22 PM
I think so, but I think TRF and a ferw others may desire a little more, however.

BTW, rick, you have exceeded your limit for PMs. not sure if you got my last one...

Haffy
07-09-2006, 04:32 PM
I think" responsible representative" is a good use of the term for anybody in here willing to step up to plate and be just that. I'm sure I can name a few of you who I would like to see take this responsibility.

Cache Maine
07-09-2006, 04:45 PM
I think" responsible representative" is a good use of the term for anybody in here willing to step up to plate and be just that. I'm sure I can name a few of you who I would like to see take this responsibility.

How about four or five Geocaching Maine Region Representatives, one for each large region (North, South, East, West and Central). That way when something local is going on, there's someone in the area that might hear about it, or be able to step up.

Haffy
07-09-2006, 05:02 PM
Great idea Cam. Now we have to have some volunteers from each district to take on the responsibilty. Anyone out there want to step up to the task?

Hiram357
07-09-2006, 05:08 PM
Great idea Cam. Now we have to have some volunteers from each district to take on the responsibilty. Anyone out there want to step up to the task? I'll step up to the plate :D (I already have good contacts with the KLT)

RanMan22
07-09-2006, 05:26 PM
Great idea Cam. Now we have to have some volunteers from each district to take on the responsibilty. Anyone out there want to step up to the task?

I nominate: Haffy, Haffy, Haffy, Haffy, and for Central district: Haffy. ;-)

-RanMan22

attroll
07-09-2006, 07:10 PM
I thought some more on this since my last reply. I donít think a public affairs person or what ever you want to call it will serve any real purpose.

Here are some questions:

What will the public affairs person do that really needs to be done?
Who are they representing?
Just because they are public affairs they would basically only be representing what, our web site?
If that is the case then what purpose would they really serve? There are many cachers that are not on out site, would this ďpublic affairs personĒ be representing our web site or geocaching in general? If they were to try and play go between with our web site and the forest service then it would only mean that our public affairs person talked with them. The user does not have to follow any rules so to speak when it come to caching, just the forest service rules and local and federal laws. We can not control who places caches, the manner in witch they place them or where they place them. We can not play police.

So if we have a public affairs person just what will they do and why bother?

brdad
07-10-2006, 05:18 AM
So if we have a public affairs person just what will they do and why bother?

I think they would just be the midle man between any outside parties and the rest of us. If a particular land owner wanted to get together with someone and specify what requirements on his property would be, such as permission forms or within 5 feet of a trail, or otherwise, and that person could then relay it to the rest of us on this site and it could be posted here for all to see. This is an issue in some states, and it is possible it could get that way here.

In many cases, the cacher wanting to place the cache could do the same thing, but I don't think it would hurt to have at least one person listed as a contact person.

Trezurs*-R-*Fun
07-10-2006, 10:00 AM
I think so, but I think TRF and a ferw others may desire a little more, however.

BTW, rick, you have exceeded your limit for PMs. not sure if you got my last one...

You are correct.. Creating some form of organization that allows the non-geocaching community to interact with us is what I would like to see. We have no such system in place except on an individual basis. Also a way to speak to the non-geocaching public as one voice. I may have one concept/idea and you may have another. (We also may agree) but what mechanisms do we have in place to say this is a common goal. These forums allow us to debate that openly and that is great and necessary. Then I go out, or you go out and push for your own agenda or vice versa. This is not necessarily good for the whole of geocaching and could lead to confusion for the non-geocaching community. It could also prove that we at these forums are not in agreement and undecided in our goals. This could be bad if it ever comes to State laws and policies that could govern how, or more of my concern, where we cache. It is my belief that we need to show strength by standing behind one organization.

The internal politics is and should always be a concern. When I say organize i'm not saying we should buy one "off the shelf." I think we can come up with an organization that works for GeocachingMaine.org. Be it monthly meetings online or simple a continuous open forum thread with polls to decide on what goals we seek. We can consider all forms of structure from President elected to simply nominate several folks to act in committee. The structure, rules and dues are not as important to me as the fact that we speak with one voice, that we prove we are united and that we protect geocaching now and in the future. Its also important to me to have a place where I can express my ideas and concerns as well as listen to others. The MGA will pursue their agenda (as they should, its their organziation) who will pursue ours or better yet, how will we pursue ours? I don't think the MGA is our enemy but why would they come here or listen to us when its time to make their policy?

dí76
07-10-2006, 10:12 AM
Be it monthly meetings online or simple a continuous open forum thread with polls to decide on what goals we seek.

Hey Steve,

Good points, You have my attention and I was one of the ones that opposed this from the beginning. I like what you are saying. However if it's open forumns that we seek with polls to make desicions than the decisions has already been made according to the recent poll of "to form or not to form."


If we choose to persue this than someone needs to come up with a rough draft of goals (not rules) and we can go from there.

Trezurs*-R-*Fun
07-10-2006, 10:17 AM
I thought some more on this since my last reply. I donít think a public affairs person or what ever you want to call it will serve any real purpose.

Here are some questions:

What will the public affairs person do that really needs to be done?
Who are they representing?
Just because they are public affairs they would basically only be representing what, our web site?
If that is the case then what purpose would they really serve? There are many cachers that are not on out site, would this ďpublic affairs personĒ be representing our web site or geocaching in general? If they were to try and play go between with our web site and the forest service then it would only mean that our public affairs person talked with them. The user does not have to follow any rules so to speak when it come to caching, just the forest service rules and local and federal laws. We can not control who places caches, the manner in witch they place them or where they place them. We can not play police.

So if we have a public affairs person just what will they do and why bother?

Rick, just playing devils advocate here. If Plum Creek decides to ban caching on their property your saying that we should just accept it and move on?? I'm thinking that if we had an official rep., we could at least talk to them, work with them maybe. Your right in that it may not sway their decision but at least we tried. If we speak to them with the backing of a large. unified organziation it may help. It may not too and I will concede that but at least we can prove we are really trying to protect geocaching as it is now.

Just so you know, what ever this group/members of this forum decide I will respect it and abide by it. I'm not going to start another organization...(ok, I could delete that last statement but I won't...LOL) I believe in majority rule and only want what is good for the geocaching community...


Cache On!!!!

parmachenee
07-10-2006, 10:20 AM
Hey Steve,

Good points, You have my attention and I was one of the ones that opposed this from the beginning. I like what you are saying. However if it's open forumns that we seek with polls to make desicions than the decisions has already been made according to the recent poll of "to form or not to form."


If we choose to persue this than someone needs to come up with a rough draft of goals (not rules) and we can go from there.

I agree with you Dave...but we have over 700 users of this website and a vote of 32 users is hardly indicative of the overall feeling of everyone here. I don't know how many are from Maine, but it still is far from a majority decision. I would like to see more input from other users than the 20 or so who have posted their feelings. Also, the "goals" should include some kind of mission statement indicating what we are "all about." IMHO

we3beans
07-10-2006, 10:42 AM
I agree with you Dave...but we have over 700 users of this website and a vote of 32 users is hardly indicative of the overall feeling of everyone here. I don't know how many are from Maine, but it still is far from a majority decision. I would like to see more input from other users than the 20 or so who have posted their feelings. Also, the "goals" should include some kind of mission statement indicating what we are "all about." IMHO

and I agree with you Frank and with Cameo regarding 5 PR people. And these could be our "go-to" people. Not just to represent us with the state and forestry, but even for a landowner like Milklover who had questions and concerns regarding a cache. If they came across the website, they could have a direct link to someone in the area (in case they couldn't get ahold of the cache owner...who may be away) who might have some answers. Or someone like rfaulk who needed some extra help with his caches, if he had somone to talk to they could hook him up with another geocacher to mentor him until he felt prepared to go out on his own. (You did a great job with him Hollora, but what if you had been able to get back-up sooner? and really, you had enough going on...what if you could have passed him off to someone?)

Another concern, which no one has brought up is the money. I hate to do it (bring up $), but I volunteered for an organization which collected money from it's members to do activities. And yearly, they had to do an accounting to it's members regarding donated money. Since, gcmaine.org has registered with the IRS should this be done? Before, when we just dropped a few bucks in an ammo can it was no big deal, but with a donate button on the website, I think there has to be an accounting for public record. And that would have to go for the coins too if we are using the IRS non-profit status for purchases. (for the record, I DO NOT think any money has been mismanaged, and the $ we are talking about is not in the KKk's but, on the other hand, we have to be responsible stewards).

attroll
07-10-2006, 11:41 AM
Rick, just playing devils advocate here. If Plum Creek decides to ban caching on their property your saying that we should just accept it and move on?? I'm thinking that if we had an official rep., we could at least talk to them, work with them maybe. Your right in that it may not sway their decision but at least we tried. If we speak to them with the backing of a large. unified organziation it may help. It may not too and I will concede that but at least we can prove we are really trying to protect geocaching as it is now.

Just so you know, what ever this group/members of this forum decide I will respect it and abide by it. I'm not going to start another organization...(ok, I could delete that last statement but I won't...LOL) I believe in majority rule and only want what is good for the geocaching community...


Cache On!!!!
You have a valid point but they are only representing the users of the web site basically. If there were to come to the web site and see some of the dicussions we bicker about then what do you think that would think. Not to change the subject but we need to be more refram some people from things that that bring up and discuss here on the web site and organized on the web site also. We have done a lot in the last month at this we jsut need to keep it up.

Haffy
07-10-2006, 11:46 AM
I think we are on the right track here and think this is finally going to be something we can all look forward to in the next few weeks while we iron out our differences and come to a mutual understanding of what GeocachingMaine means to all of us.
I think the next step is to try and formulate some sort of charter so to speak for lack of a better word, to reach all members here in the forums. I would propose that we put out a mass email to ALL of the members who have signed in to this forum and get the whole general concensus of what the members would like to see. I'm not saying that someone who has signed in here and visited once or twice but we have a lot of members who for one reason or another just don't participate in here but do visit and read what we as active members of GM.org have to say. It should be quite simple to put something like this together and am sure other members here would like to see something like this as well. What are your thoughts? Or am I way off track?

attroll
07-10-2006, 11:55 AM
and I agree with you Frank and with Cameo regarding 5 PR people.

I don't agree with that right now. I think we should start out with at maybe 2. One for the northern half and one for the southern half of the state. I really think we should start with one but the traveling would be a pain in the butt for one person.



Another concern, which no one has brought up is the money. I hate to do it (bring up $), but I volunteered for an organization which collected money from it's members to do activities. And yearly, they had to do an accounting to it's members regarding donated money. Since, gcmaine.org has registered with the IRS should this be done? Before, when we just dropped a few bucks in an ammo can it was no big deal, but with a donate button on the website, I think there has to be an accounting for public record. And that would have to go for the coins too if we are using the IRS non-profit status for purchases. (for the record, I DO NOT think any money has been mismanaged, and the $ we are talking about is not in the KKk's but, on the other hand, we have to be responsible stewards).

I don't see no need to have any required payments to be in this organization at this time. I don't see where we could acually pull in enough money for anything. I don't think people are going to want to pay money for things that can do for free. If we did do this then we would have to poll the members every time we wanted to spend the money so we could vote on it. As for the money going towards the coins. The coins are not that much to begin with at $3 each where we really need to put any money into them unless we change the coin a lot. From what I have heard others discussing we may only change the rear design and the metal. So that will not be pricey at all.

All the money I had in the account was being tracked through paypal until recently. But if we were to do something like that we could us paypal for the tracking. We would also require a checking account. I don't think we need start charging any fees right now. This may be something that can be discussed in the future though.

attroll
07-10-2006, 11:58 AM
I think we are on the right track here and think this is finally going to be something we can all look forward to in the next few weeks while we iron out our differences and come to a mutual understanding of what GeocachingMaine means to all of us.
I think the next step is to try and formulate some sort of charter so to speak for lack of a better word, to reach all members here in the forums. I would propose that we put out a mass email to ALL of the members who have signed in to this forum and get the whole general concensus of what the members would like to see. I'm not saying that someone who has signed in here and visited once or twice but we have a lot of members who for one reason or another just don't participate in here but do visit and read what we as active members of GM.org have to say. It should be quite simple to put something like this together and am sure other members here would like to see something like this as well. What are your thoughts? Or am I way off track?
That could be done. We need someone to draft up this email and have a couple others look it over for proofing.

we3beans
07-10-2006, 12:32 PM
I don't agree with that right now. I think we should start out with at maybe 2. One for the northern half and one for the southern half of the state. I really think we should start with one but the traveling would be a pain in the butt for one person.

The traveling is exactly the reason to have 5 people covering the state. Also, it would mean no-one was overburdened by the work it might (or might not) take. Also, while, say, Steve knows Albion really well, he may not feel all that comforatable with Houlton where we know we can ask Jordan to cover something and he can REALLY screw stuff up (just teasing!)

I don't see no need to have any required payments to be in this organization at this time.

I don't see where we could acually pull in enough money for anything. I don't think people are going to want to pay money for things that can do for free. If we did do this then we would have to poll the members every time we wanted to spend the money so we could vote on it. As for the money going towards the coins. The coins are not that much to begin with at $3 each where we really need to put any money into them unless we change the coin a lot. From what I have heard others discussing we may only change the rear design and the metal. So that will not be pricey at all.
I never said there should be any required payments. In fact, I don't think we should ask for $ until/unless we need it. I'm talking about money already donated to the website, which would include an accounting of $ leftover from the coins.
All the money I had in the account was being tracked through paypal until recently. But if we were to do something like that we could us paypal for the tracking. We would also require a checking account. I don't think we need start charging any fees right now. This may be something that can be discussed in the future though.

When I volunteered for the non-profit, we filled out financial reports and submitted once a year, I'm talking about posting something like that....these were the donations, these were the costs...

attroll
07-10-2006, 12:37 PM
When I volunteered for the non-profit, we filled out financial reports and submitted once a year, I'm talking about posting something like that....these were the donations, these were the costs...
Oh OK. We would not have to file a report each year with the IRS, but posting it for the memebrs would be nice if we go that way.

Beach Comber
07-10-2006, 01:02 PM
Thank you Rick for putting the poll out and asking for opinions. I like that there is opportunity for anyone interested to put in their two cents and indicate their preference.

I have been thinking about my preference for this and have also been reading what others have shared. There are a number of good points here and a variety of ways that this could go.

I have enjoyed the informality of this community and have no strong need for the organization to be different or more formal. It seems that a number of the issues that have been raised are already addressed in the existing structure..........

Land Trust contacts - A number of people have stepped up to the plate and made connections

Media - A number of people have written articles, others interviewed, some have given presentations

Resource - Fellow cachers are available for questions via the website, have acted as mentors when asked, etc.

Funding - When $ have been needed, individuals have contributed at an event or through the donation button

Political - If issues arise, it seems that they are brought to the website. If we all keep ours ears and eyes open and share what we learn, we would have very broad coverage without relying on a small number of people being responsible. If something is identified as needing attention, we could make an impromptu plan at that time.

My preference is to leave things as they are, but I will certainly respect whatever path this takes.

tat
07-10-2006, 01:03 PM
I have not read any of the posts so far, but I will chime in anyway.

I like the open format of this site. No one "runs" the site. There is more ability to come to a consensus here that there would be in most "organized" groups because no one is any more power than any one else. Except, of course, the site owner. And, even the site owner exercises minimal power over the members.

If we had a president or chairman or any other such titled person, the site would inevitably become that person's site. I like the way we bounce ideas off each other and help each other understand different points of view. I think we all know someone, or are someone who has a much different view of some aspect of this game because of our frank, open and sometimes spirited discussions. We should make sure we don't loose this!

Not having a traditional organization shouldn't stop us from evolving. We need to find a way to come up with decisions. Decisions were especially hard to discern on the coin project. We should also find ways to be sure posts are helping us sort out problems and not just creating animosity. There have been a few posts (like this one) that have clear guidelines. Perhaps it is time the whole site has some clear guidelines to help people know how to get their point across without turning everyone against them.

I don't see any other reasons for having an organization, so, I voted "I don't care". I can't wait to read the rest of the posts!

attroll
07-10-2006, 01:42 PM
Thank you Rick for putting the poll out and asking for opinions. I like that there is opportunity for anyone interested to put in their two cents and indicate their preference.

I have been thinking about my preference for this and have also been reading what others have shared. There are a number of good points here and a variety of ways that this could go.

I have enjoyed the informality of this community and have no strong need for the organization to be different or more formal. It seems that a number of the issues that have been raised are already addressed in the existing structure..........

Land Trust contacts - A number of people have stepped up to the plate and made connections

Media - A number of people have written articles, others interviewed, some have given presentations

Resource - Fellow cachers are available for questions via the website, have acted as mentors when asked, etc.

Funding - When $ have been needed, individuals have contributed at an event or through the donation button

Political - If issues arise, it seems that they are brought to the website. If we all keep ours ears and eyes open and share what we learn, we would have very broad coverage without relying on a small number of people being responsible. If something is identified as needing attention, we could make an impromptu plan at that time.

My preference is to leave things as they are, but I will certainly respect whatever path this takes.

I agree with you 100% Judy and this is where I stand. I was just offering thoughts. I do agree with this 100% though and will respect what ever others agree on and what the outcome is also.

firefighterjake
07-10-2006, 02:47 PM
This has been (and is) an interesting "debate" with many good points on the various sides of this issue. I still stand by my own personal opinion on this issue, but I believe there have been some excellent points made by folks representing many different beliefs.

Trezurs*-R-*Fun
07-10-2006, 03:17 PM
Thank you Rick for putting the poll out and asking for opinions. I like that there is opportunity for anyone interested to put in their two cents and indicate their preference.

I have been thinking about my preference for this and have also been reading what others have shared. There are a number of good points here and a variety of ways that this could go.

I have enjoyed the informality of this community and have no strong need for the organization to be different or more formal. It seems that a number of the issues that have been raised are already addressed in the existing structure..........

Land Trust contacts - A number of people have stepped up to the plate and made connections

Media - A number of people have written articles, others interviewed, some have given presentations

Resource - Fellow cachers are available for questions via the website, have acted as mentors when asked, etc.

Funding - When $ have been needed, individuals have contributed at an event or through the donation button

Political - If issues arise, it seems that they are brought to the website. If we all keep ours ears and eyes open and share what we learn, we would have very broad coverage without relying on a small number of people being responsible. If something is identified as needing attention, we could make an impromptu plan at that time.

My preference is to leave things as they are, but I will certainly respect whatever path this takes.


While I agree on many of your points there are a couple I would like to discuss and one issue, and you brought it up, is a "number of people" handling different aspects. These folks are not representing GeocachingMaine.org, they are representing themselves and that is not meant mean spiritedly. I commend them and thank them but when they leave GeocachingMaine.org (if they leave and hopefully they don't) they take that relationship with them, no matter what their intent. Don't misinterpret my thoughts, "many" individuals can still do tghe different aspects but they would be endorsed by GeocachingMaine.Org or Association or Club. It would be hard to say that you represent folks at an open forum. There are no clearly defined .....anything. Looking at this from a "Muggles" point of view, we are just a "Gossip Site" and I know we are so much more. You don't have to convince me what this site has to offer, we have to convince the non-geocaching community what we have to offer and what we are about. And as far as forming an impromptu political action group it would be way to late by the time we recognized a need. If the MGA does get on the books as an"official organization" they will be part of a public listing of "Official Organizations" and by default will be the ones asked questions by the general public and lawmakers. If we start an impromptu organization we would have to fight just to validate ourselves and that would take away from our political effectiveness. I know there is alot of commitment here, once again, it's not me you have to convince its the non-geocaching community.

Lastly, just because we are an organization doesn't mean we will be ruled by a small group or it will became that persons website. By forming an "official" organization doesn't empower an individual or a small group of people to do as they please rather it should give us one respected and credible voice to speak with. The strength of any organization is by member participation and the diverse views that are presented and hashed out , hopefully, form one great idea. What makes these forums so great right now are the members and what they bring to this site. We are all free to voice our opinions here, why would organizing take that away? We can still debate issues and present ideas and have chat night and have events and put the geocachingmaine.org logo on our caches and so on.

How we chose to interact and get our message out to the public and non-members of this site is what I would like to see addressed. I would like to see us have some credibility as an organization in the public eye and not be regarded as a "Gossip Site."

brdad
07-10-2006, 03:36 PM
I agree with you Dave...but we have over 700 users of this website and a vote of 32 users is hardly indicative of the overall feeling of everyone here. I don't know how many are from Maine, but it still is far from a majority decision. I would like to see more input from other users than the 20 or so who have posted their feelings. Also, the "goals" should include some kind of mission statement indicating what we are "all about." IMHO

I have mentioned this to Rick allready, and think we should find a method of contacting all interested members when a vote or discussion of this matter comes up.

Hiram357
07-10-2006, 03:38 PM
I have mentioned this to Rick allready, and think we should find a method of contacting all interested members when a vote or discussion of this matter comes up.

see... if we had geocaching representatives they could contact all of those geocachers and get their opinion on this. :D

Haffy
07-10-2006, 04:19 PM
I just think we need to act and act now or we are going to be just that "the gossip site". We need to stand and be counted as the GeocachingMaine organization that everybody looks up to. I dont think this site will stand a chance against a formally organized body if there are any challenges or concerns that are brought up by the media,land trust,forest concerns or any private or public land baron when it comes to presenting the facts concerning geocaching. It will take more than a few individuals to change their minds when we are just a so-called gossip site. But that is just my opinion.

Hiram357
07-10-2006, 04:46 PM
I just think we need to act and act now or we are going to be just that "the gossip site". We need to stand and be counted as the GeocachingMaine organization that everybody looks up to. I dont think this site will stand a chance against a formally organized body if there are any challenges or concerns that are brought up by the media,land trust,forest concerns or any private or public land baron when it comes to presenting the facts concerning geocaching. It will take more than a few individuals to change their minds when we are just a so-called gossip site. But that is just my opinion.

I'll second that.

Sudonim
07-10-2006, 05:03 PM
I just think we need to act and act now or we are going to be just that "the gossip site". We need to stand and be counted as the GeocachingMaine organization that everybody looks up to. I dont think this site will stand a chance against a formally organized body if there are any challenges or concerns that are brought up by the media,land trust,forest concerns or any private or public land baron when it comes to presenting the facts concerning geocaching. It will take more than a few individuals to change their minds when we are just a so-called gossip site. But that is just my opinion.
While I initially didn't see a reason for an "official" organization, this reasoning is swaying my opinion. I know that in other states, there are groups against geocaching, some with justified complaints, some not (just a bad impression and a "we shouldn't let them do that" attitude).
An official organization could bring a demonstration or talk to introduce people to the concept, or in cases where there was a legitimate concern, the organization could work with the concerned parties to change the disagreeable actions, or work out a compromise.
There are a lot people in our group with well thought out and clearly stated ideas about this. Thanks for putting those ideas out for the rest of us to consider.

Mainelyroses
07-10-2006, 06:19 PM
Thank you Rick for putting the poll out and asking for opinions. I like that there is opportunity for anyone interested to put in their two cents and indicate their preference.

I have been thinking about my preference for this and have also been reading what others have shared. There are a number of good points here and a variety of ways that this could go.

I have enjoyed the informality of this community and have no strong need for the organization to be different or more formal. It seems that a number of the issues that have been raised are already addressed in the existing structure..........

Land Trust contacts - A number of people have stepped up to the plate and made connections

Media - A number of people have written articles, others interviewed, some have given presentations

Resource - Fellow cachers are available for questions via the website, have acted as mentors when asked, etc.

Funding - When $ have been needed, individuals have contributed at an event or through the donation button

Political - If issues arise, it seems that they are brought to the website. If we all keep ours ears and eyes open and share what we learn, we would have very broad coverage without relying on a small number of people being responsible. If something is identified as needing attention, we could make an impromptu plan at that time.

My preference is to leave things as they are, but I will certainly respect whatever path this takes.

I agree with all of these points....Including respecting the eventual path that it takes. However, I have a sinking feeling that our site will never be the same if it becomes a "formal" organization. The thought of that makes me sad :(

Haffy
07-10-2006, 06:22 PM
Aww, don't be sad, I think only good things can come of this and we will be more united than ever before.:)

WhereRWe?
07-10-2006, 07:14 PM
I just think we need to act and act now or we are going to be just that "the gossip site". We need to stand and be counted as the GeocachingMaine organization that everybody looks up to. I dont think this site will stand a chance against a formally organized body

Sheesh! Haffy is agreeing with me? Is there a blue moon tonight???

:eek: :eek:

tat
07-10-2006, 07:16 PM
... dont think this site will stand a chance against a formally organized body if there are any challenges or concerns that are brought up by the media,land trust,forest concerns or any private or public land baron when it comes to presenting the facts concerning geocaching...

We do not need to have a formal organization to have political clout. If we have one voice and act together, we will be very capable of swaying opinion.

We have a tradition of working with land owners. Our history with helping land owners will certainly mean more to other land owners than wether we have a president or pay dues.

tat
07-10-2006, 07:30 PM
I am beginnig to actually like the idea of two alternatives to our local Geocaching channels. We all have preferences, some like structure and formality, some like the laid back, anything goes attitude.

We have a great chance right now to have the best of both worlds.

Here's an anology:

My older brother owns a business machine company. Not long after he built a new store, his competitor built a similar store across the street. I asked him if that bothered him and he supprized me by saying "No, the compitition is not a problem." Comparison shopping is very important and having both stores together only increased impulse buying.

By having two alternatives, Maine geocachers can present two groups that have the same (but different) goals.

Has anyone else noticed the complete lack of concern on the part of the Groundspeak New England forums? They aren't upset or threatened by another group.

Haffy
07-10-2006, 08:02 PM
Nobody said anything about having a president or paying dues that I can read back on. I just don't think we can have a true voice regarding any issues that will be sure to come up if we don't do something very soon. And who represents the New England forums on GC.com by the way anyway? From what I have seen it is mostly people from Mass and Conn who frequent those forums only because they don't have anyplace else to go to voice their opinions.

tat
07-10-2006, 09:10 PM
e ...just because we are an organization doesn't mean we will be ruled by a small group or it will became that persons website. By forming an "official" organization doesn't empower an individual or a small group of people to do as they please rather it should give us one respected and credible voice to speak with. The strength of any organization is by member participation and the diverse views that are presented and hashed out , hopefully, form one great idea. What makes these forums so great right now are the members and what they bring to this site. We are all free to voice our opinions here, why would organizing take that away? We can still debate issues and present ideas and have chat night and have events and put the geocachingmaine.org logo on our caches and so on. ...

This is exactly how I see our site. I'm not against organization, but I have no idea how to organize and meet the goals above.

Can someone explain how we should be structured?

Trezurs*-R-*Fun
07-10-2006, 09:35 PM
This is exactly how I see our site. I'm not against organization, but I have no idea how to organize and meet the goals above.

Can someone explain how we should be structured?


The idea of the discussion was to bring ideas to the table. Our options are only limited by our imaginations. There are many successful associations out there that we could model ourselves after. For example, the American Heart Association, the NRA, the Sierra Club, The Audobon Society, The American Red Cross, Salvation Army, the Humane Society, SAM(Sportsman Alliance of Maine), AKA American Kennel Association), DU (Duck Unlimited) the MGA(Maine Geocaching Association) and the list can go on and on. My point is, all the organizations listed above are respected for what they represent. To many folks thes organizations are the ultimate authority for what they represent.

The way to start an organization, as has been stated in previous post by others, would be to come up with a mission statement and a charter, then form a "structure" that could best meet those goals.

Cache On!!!!

attroll
07-11-2006, 12:05 AM
As mentioned in the first post the rules for posting in this thread are not to bring up MGA at all. This is for discussing whether we need to become an organization and not to compare or relate to them at all. This is also to keep from any negative posts being posted about them. I have deleted any post that mentions them in this thread. So if you wondering why your post have been deleted then now you know why.

Trezurs*-R-*Fun
07-11-2006, 06:34 AM
As mentioned in the first post the rules for posting in this thread are not to bring up MGA at all. This is for discussing whether we need to become an organization and not to compare or relate to them at all. This is also to keep from any negative posts being posted about them. I have deleted any post that mentions them in this thread. So if you wondering why your post have been deleted then now you know why.

To my knowledge, no one has referred to the MGA in a negative manner. Any comparisons made have been used to enforce a points of why we should organize. I do agree that we don't need to use their anacronym in a disparaging way but I think its fair play to use them to help enforce points for us organizing.

Hope I haven't been the offending party and if I am I apologize. I have nothing but respect for the founders of the MGA and have expressed and will continue to express nothing but my good will and hopeful success of the MGA.

Cache On!!!

attroll
07-11-2006, 11:20 AM
To my knowledge, no one has referred to the MGA in a negative manner. Any comparisons made have been used to enforce a points of why we should organize. I do agree that we don't need to use their anacronym in a disparaging way but I think its fair play to use them to help enforce points for us organizing.

Hope I haven't been the offending party and if I am I apologize. I have nothing but respect for the founders of the MGA and have expressed and will continue to express nothing but my good will and hopeful success of the MGA.

Cache On!!!
No Steve you have not been one. I just stated in the beginning of the thread that they do not even need to be mentioned. The reason was this has nothing at all to do with them and everything to do with us. There is no comparison needed because there is nothing to compare to except speculation. So I want to keep it that way and anything mentioned about them will be deleted. So from here on it will be enforced.

Pooh and friends
07-12-2006, 09:49 AM
So from here on it will be enforced.

Walk softly, carry a big hiking stick!;)

Trezurs*-R-*Fun
07-12-2006, 10:59 AM
It seems discussion is over. I hope this doesn't get put on the "back burner" and for some, "go away" quietly. I think we, as a group, need to come to some concensus and decide on a future course of action regarding this thread. While we are under no time constraints, I believe a timely decision, one way or anther, will be in our best interest to solving the concerns outlined and discussed in this thread.

Cache On!!!!

tat
07-12-2006, 12:21 PM
Perhaps we should start with a simple task, such as a mission statement.

attroll
07-12-2006, 12:33 PM
Perhaps we should start with a simple task, such as a mission statement.
That would be a very good start. Do we have any volunteer's that would like to draft one up.

kayakerinme
07-12-2006, 02:34 PM
I'm confused. What do we need a mission statement for?

At this moment, the poll shows 13 Yes, 23 No, and 6 Don't care (3 No and 2 DC were added since yesterday at about this time when I was thinking about it. No Yes votes have been tallied in the last day.)

A mission statement would be required if an organization was forming. Based on the poll results, there doesn't seem to be a consensus to move ahead.

The poll results do seem to be representative of the people visiting the forums and posting here on the board:

49 people have posted at least one message since 7/7 when the poll was started - and 42 have voted. (62 have posted since 7/1). That seems like a pretty good percentage.

98 people have visited since 7/7 so half of the people visting here have either not read or, if read, have chosen not to vote/comment on this thread. (123 have visited since 7/1) Until now, that would include me.

So, is this moving ahead?

brdad
07-12-2006, 03:39 PM
So, is this moving ahead?

I don't see where it would do any hard to have a mission statement. We don't even need to be a organization to do that. In fact, it might help us discuss just what we as a group want to do for the geocaching and non-geocaching communities.

I'd like to see a few people write a draft up and see what comes of it. We can always vote it down if it does not sound like something we want to do.

I think I am still against a full fledged organization, and despite the actual votes, many people here seem to have swayed toward the center or possibly changed their mind on the issue. That is one problem with running a vote before ideas are discussed. Plus, it'd be good to get a vote from a larger percentage of members.

tat
07-12-2006, 05:02 PM
I think kayakerinme has a good point, we should not give the appearance that a few of us are going against the wishes of the majority. In fact, the more we kick this around the less I understand the question!

Should we have a Geocaching Maine Organization?

What is an organization? I'm not sure I have any idea what I'm voting for or against!

Maybe a better next step is to come up with a survey listing as many things as posible:

Do you want a mission statement?
Would you pay dues?
Do you want to lobby for political action?
Do you want someone else to lobby on your behalf?
Do you want to make decisions base on polls?
Do you want more guidelines for posting?
Do you want this site to be more than a forum?

Sudonim
07-12-2006, 05:15 PM
The way this thread has seemed to develop (in my observation), maybe we want a small group to lobby our interests in case there is a local or state opposition to geocaching.

attroll
07-12-2006, 05:33 PM
Here's an idea:

- Our goal is provide a free Internet community for the sharing of information related to the Geocaching.
- We will do this by using open forums for all to use.
- We will honor freedom of speech (within limits).
- We will do tour best to keep this environment friendly for all.
- We will share or pass information on to others in regards to updates and information on the Geocaching as it becomes available.
- We will respect others opinions and not force our views on to others.
- We expect the same in return from others.

Note: One person does not own Geocaching Maine. Everyone on this site shares a piece of it. Lets work together and help our Maine community of Geocaching Enthusiasts grow.

vicbiker
07-12-2006, 05:48 PM
I said in a earlier post,that organizations cause a lot of hate and discontent among friends,etc,etc.Also that I don't like to belong to organizations.I realized right after I made that statement,that I do belong to the Bicycle Coalition of Maine.If anybody knows anything about this group,you'll know that we have accomplished a lot of good things for biking in Maine.We have in Jeff Miller a president that works tiredlessly for the group,along with lots and lots of volunteer help.We have great rallies and events every year.

Organizations give you power and with power comes the ability to get things done.The BCM has gotten us more bike lanes,more share the road signs and overall better riding conditions.Jeff is in Augusta almost daily working with our legislators or the D.O.T.

At this time what do we need to accomplish that we need the power of a organization?

kayakerinme
07-12-2006, 06:15 PM
Plus, it'd be good to get a vote from a larger percentage of members.

I'm curious how large a group we might be able to get. Consider the following:

I've pulled an arbitrary number of at least 6 posts as someone whom I would consider "active". I think it's a fairly low number and arguments can be made to move this number up or down. Using this as a base, however, ...

Only 95 members with 6 or more posts have posted in the last 6 months. In fact, only 115 members have more than 6 posts period. 62 of those 95 have posted at least one message in July. I think of these as the "active" folks.

Of the 682 members as of this post, 397 have visited the site since the beginning of the year; 309 have visited since April 1. What I can't see are which are based in Maine and which are "from away" so to speak. I have sent a request to Groundspeak asking how many cachers have identified themselves as hailing from Maine, but I haven't heard anything yet.

So... going back to the 95 "active" folks, 44% have answered the survey in one way or another. 42 of 49 folks that have posted since the survey was introduced five days ago have voted one way or the other.

It seems to me that about the highest number one might achieve with this survey is about 100 folks, and IMHO, this seems like it'd be pushing it.

What does a "larger percentage" mean to you? What would make it a satisfactory survey?

Thanks!

dí76
07-12-2006, 06:24 PM
I'm curious how large a group we might be able to get. Consider the following:

I've pulled an arbitrary number of at least 6 posts as someone whom I would consider "active". I think it's a fairly low number and arguments can be made to move this number up or down. Using this as a base, however, ...

Only 95 members with 6 or more posts have posted in the last 6 months. In fact, only 115 members have more than 6 posts period. 62 of those 95 have posted at least one message in July. I think of these as the "active" folks.

Of the 682 members as of this post, 397 have visited the site since the beginning of the year; 309 have visited since April 1. What I can't see are which are based in Maine and which are "from away" so to speak. I have sent a request to Groundspeak asking how many cachers have identified themselves as hailing from Maine, but I haven't heard anything yet.

So... going back to the 95 "active" folks, 44% have answered the survey in one way or another. 42 of 49 folks that have posted since the survey was introduced five days ago have voted one way or the other.

It seems to me that about the highest number one might achieve with this survey is about 100 folks, and IMHO, this seems like it'd be pushing it.

What does a "larger percentage" mean to you? What would make it a satisfactory survey?

Thanks!

I was thinking kinda the same thing but didnt want to do the math to figure it out. Nicely done. I think that their is a huge percentage of folks that signed on to keep up with the new coin but other than that the others have just come and gone. I think we have enough numbers to represent the group. Remember that the folks that are truely the regulars are somewhat of a small group.

Haffy
07-12-2006, 06:31 PM
In answer to your question Vic I see the need is coming very soon. As you well know Geocaching is growing by leaps and bounds each and every day. There are approximately around 1400 caches in the state now and more and more are being added everyday.

Unfortunately not all geocachers follow all the rules and regulations put forth by GC.com. I feel that we will begin to see restrictions placed on us that will in the future forbid us to place caches. In that regards I think we need to establish some guidelines of our own and be able to help the non-geocacher make wise choices as to the how ,where, and why they want to place caches. I think an organization,not necessarily a dues paying or having officers per se, is needed so we can be here to answer questions and be stewards of this great state of ours.

Already in a few states restrictions are being forced upon geocachers and we need to be able to discuss with landowners, land managers,forestry representatives throughout the state that we are responsible stewards of the land.

As an organization I think we will have a better ability to deal with situations that almost assuredly will occur and we will have a strong backbone with which to deal with these situations. We have an opportunity at this time to make a big difference in how the general public looks upon us and to really make Maine Geocaching "The Way caching should Be"

Beach Comber
07-12-2006, 06:47 PM
I'm curious how large a group we might be able to get. Consider the following:

I've pulled an arbitrary number of at least 6 posts as someone whom I would consider "active". I think it's a fairly low number and arguments can be made to move this number up or down. Using this as a base, however, ...

Only 95 members with 6 or more posts have posted in the last 6 months. In fact, only 115 members have more than 6 posts period. 62 of those 95 have posted at least one message in July. I think of these as the "active" folks.

Of the 682 members as of this post, 397 have visited the site since the beginning of the year; 309 have visited since April 1. What I can't see are which are based in Maine and which are "from away" so to speak. I have sent a request to Groundspeak asking how many cachers have identified themselves as hailing from Maine, but I haven't heard anything yet.

So... going back to the 95 "active" folks, 44% have answered the survey in one way or another. 42 of 49 folks that have posted since the survey was introduced five days ago have voted one way or the other.

It seems to me that about the highest number one might achieve with this survey is about 100 folks, and IMHO, this seems like it'd be pushing it.

What does a "larger percentage" mean to you? What would make it a satisfactory survey?

Thanks!

Thanks a million for doing this!! I lovvvvvvvvvve the numbers - so revealing and helpful. Hmmm - maybe that is why I enjoy QA and research!!! Though more responses is always better, it is important to remember that getting a high percentage of responses is very unlikely. In fact, 44% is in line with the typical response rate. Some might even say it is a bit better than par. It seems a good representation to me. The question remains perhaps whether or not people would have indicated a different response had the discussion taken place before the poll or perhaps if the question was worded differently. It is hard to know without putting out another poll.


I was thinking kinda the same thing but didnt want to do the math to figure it out. Nicely done. I think that their is a huge percentage of folks that signed on to keep up with the new coin but other than that the others have just come and gone. I think we have enough numbers to represent the group. Remember that the folks that are truely the regulars are somewhat of a small group.

I agree. It isn't that I don't think the opinion of everyone who is a member is not important, but that those who have an interest in the ongoings of the group are likely to be active and therefore represented in the poll.


Unfortunately not all geocachers follow all the rules and regulations put forth by GC.com. I feel that we will begin to see restrictions placed on us that will in the future forbid us to place caches. In that regards I think we need to establish some guidelines of our own and be able to help the non-geocacher make wise choices as to the how ,where, and why they want to place caches. I think an organization,not necessarily a dues paying or having officers per se, is needed so we can be here to answer questions and be stewards of this great state of ours.

I don't believe that establishing our own guidelines will help to achieve everyone following the already written expectations. If people are not following them now, they will likely not follow them after we write them. I'm not saying don't write them, as much as we need to have realistic expectations.

This approach is where we are likely to have the most success. Aren't we already doing this?

Team2hunt
07-12-2006, 06:58 PM
Here's an idea:

- Our goal is provide a free Internet community for the sharing of information related to the Geocaching.


Note: One person does not own Geocaching Maine. Everyone on this site shares a piece of it. Lets work together and help our Maine community of Geocaching Enthusiasts grow.

This should be it. Sorry Rick, but the rest of it sounds like my mother lecturing me.

Thanks, Rick ................ Geocaching in Maine, the way it should be.

By the way we voted NO!! and this doesn't sound to " organized " to me.

brdad
07-12-2006, 07:07 PM
What does a "larger percentage" mean to you? What would make it a satisfactory survey?

What I would like to see is all members, or at least all members who desire to be contacted (perhaps via their profile or an entry when they join up), get an email whenever a vote or discussion like this comes up describing what is being discussed. Just like political voting, many will not bother. But at least the people who only come to this web site once a month or even once a year will be notified. of course, there is still a percentage of Maine cachers who don't belong to the site, we all should be doing to see what we can do to fix that!

firefighterjake
07-13-2006, 08:19 AM
. . . Remember that the folks that are truely the regulars are somewhat of a small group.

I post often here, but I would never consider myself "regular." ;) :D

firefighterjake
07-13-2006, 08:23 AM
I'm curious how large a group we might be able to get. Consider the following:

I've pulled an arbitrary number of at least 6 posts as someone whom I would consider "active". I think it's a fairly low number and arguments can be made to move this number up or down. Using this as a base, however, ...

Only 95 members with 6 or more posts have posted in the last 6 months. In fact, only 115 members have more than 6 posts period. 62 of those 95 have posted at least one message in July. I think of these as the "active" folks.

Of the 682 members as of this post, 397 have visited the site since the beginning of the year; 309 have visited since April 1. What I can't see are which are based in Maine and which are "from away" so to speak. I have sent a request to Groundspeak asking how many cachers have identified themselves as hailing from Maine, but I haven't heard anything yet.

So... going back to the 95 "active" folks, 44% have answered the survey in one way or another. 42 of 49 folks that have posted since the survey was introduced five days ago have voted one way or the other.

It seems to me that about the highest number one might achieve with this survey is about 100 folks, and IMHO, this seems like it'd be pushing it.

What does a "larger percentage" mean to you? What would make it a satisfactory survey?

Thanks!

Thank goodness there is someone here that has a head for figures . . . because that person certainly wouldn't be me since I barely squeaked by algebra, advanced algebra, geometry and every other math class I've had to take since kindergarten. If the computing involves more than the number of fingers and toes I have (19 for the record -- darn hay baler accident :D ) I'm usually lost.

Trezurs*-R-*Fun
07-13-2006, 08:36 AM
One commonality I have seen here from those who are apparently in opposition to organizing is that they don't want things to "change." The ironic thing is that to prevent "change" we have to fight to prevent it. If we sit back and do nothing, geocaching will change. In my short tenure as a geocacher I have seen micros become very prevalent; that has occurred in just over 1 year. When I started there were on 800 geocaches, that number has almost doubled in 1 year. The number of geocachers has increased dramatically and so will the impact on the environment and the perception that the non-geocaching community has of us.

It seems that folks are really concerned that organizing will change our sport when in fact I see it as a way to protect it as it is now. What mechanisms do we have in place to protect it as it currently is? Obviously if someone asked me I would say, "none." We are pointing out number and percentages of participants to these forums and using those statistics as argument for organizing. I think that if we had an organization with a mission statement and a charter that people would have a reason to participate. This site is great to get questions answered and make new friends and chat about geocaching and everything but there are no goals to achieve, nothing to promote geocaching outside of our ranks, nothing in place to protect our sport.

This Statement seems to be a re-occuring theme here.



I don't believe that establishing our own guidelines will help to achieve everyone following the already written expectations. If people are not following them now, they will likely not follow them after we write them. I'm not saying don't write them, as much as we need to have realistic expectations.




I agree with it wholeheartedly but I will add that if we organize around a mission statement and a charter, we can effectively say to the general public that our group does not endorse or condone activity that is detrimental to the environment or caching in general. Whereas, right now, we have no way to say that this is what we are, this is what we do and this is what we expect. I don't think we need rules to regulate members here but we could say in a mission statement, " WE, AS AN OFFICIAL GROUP AND SUBSEQUENTLY ALL MEMBERS OF THIS GROUP WILL AND DO STRIVE TO ABIDE BY THE GUIDELINES OUTLINED IN THE `GEOCACHERS CREED'." Then when somebody does not abide by it we can essentially distance ourselves from that individual ultimately protecting the integrety of our group and of our sport.

This is what organizing means to me, not more rules but simply to abide by the existing ones.

Geocaching is changing no matter what we think, some of those that have been geocaching when there were only a couple of geocaches in the whole state have seen major change. I've heard those same cachers complain about the "evolution" of this sport but that is all I have heard; some complaining. Some folks have acted on their complaints and have "splintered off" to do what they think is right. We should follow their example and do the same.

We as a group will not always agree but we don't need to keep dividing our ranks. While there are many philosophies surrounding geocaching, (and I can live with all of them), we still live in one state and should unite under that idea "Maine, caching the way it Should be."


Cache On!!!!

becket
07-13-2006, 08:36 AM
Here's an idea:

- Our goal is provide a free Internet community for the sharing of information related to the Geocaching.


i agree with team2hunt that this brief statement (with changing the word "goal" to "mission") would work. mission statements should be as brief and concise as possible. (maybe i would change the statement to say a free geocaching community - we are WAY more than an internet community).

i agree with everyone that things are changing and we should be organized - as informally as possible. just my 2 cents

Trezurs*-R-*Fun
07-13-2006, 08:37 AM
I post often here, but I would never consider myself "regular." ;) :D


Another point that I brought up with a "Veteran" cacher. We are tolerated but will never be accepted....;)

Beach Comber
07-13-2006, 06:51 PM
One commonality I have seen here from those who are apparently in opposition to organizing is that they don't want things to "change." The ironic thing is that to prevent "change" we have to fight to prevent it. If we sit back and do nothing, geocaching will change.

It seems that folks are really concerned that organizing will change our sport when in fact I see it as a way to protect it as it is now. What mechanisms do we have in place to protect it as it currently is?


For me, it is quite the opposite. I don't have a problem with the idea that it IS changing. It sounds like organizing to protect it as it is, is an effort to prevent change rather than seeing things evolve.

Either way, I will still enjoy geocaching and take from it what I am interested in and give to it what I would like to.

Trezurs*-R-*Fun
07-13-2006, 07:35 PM
For me, it is quite the opposite. I don't have a problem with the idea that it IS changing. It sounds like organizing to protect it as it is, is an effort to prevent change rather than seeing things evolve.

Either way, I will still enjoy geocaching and take from it what I am interested in and give to it what I would like to.

The change I forsee is that we will be limited to where we can place caches. No public parks, no caches on private property in the Northern Maine woods. This is how I see it evolving if we don't protect it. So I guess I agree, organizing to maintain what we have today is what I'm after.

attroll
07-14-2006, 12:48 AM
Maybe we should schedule and event and talk this all out. Sometime in August would be great. I am free the 12th or the 19th. I would like to attend and hear what everyone has to say.

we3beans
07-14-2006, 09:54 AM
Do we know if the Geochicks are planning their BBQ for August???

becket
07-14-2006, 10:05 AM
Maybe we should schedule and event and talk this all out. i think this is a great idea!

SewN2Cachin'
07-14-2006, 03:42 PM
For what it's worth, I think we're already an organization, we're just not officially registered anywhere as such. The thought of this place being referred to as a "gossip site" is offensive. I think there have been some intense debates, but the term "gossip" is really not what we've been about. If that's how we'd be perceived by the non-geocaching community, than I'm for making what we already HAVE, official.

I basically subscribe to the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" model. But the point TRF makes about having a voice before we NEED one on political issues has swayed me from my initial thoughts. I haven't voted yet....but I intend to. I just wanted to read all the entries before I did so, and I'm glad I did.

I think people's concerns about the potential for hurt feelings, is valid. Organizations can get very ugly in this way. I don't think we can let that potential for difficulty stand in the way of this forum's potential for speaking in a unified way to anyone opposed to geocaching.

So I guess I believe that the risks of "organizing" outweigh the risks of not doing so. I would hate to see the atmosphere here change -- or add a bunch of rules and reg's to abide by. But I don't think that's necessary.
I just want us to have a voice beyond this setting, should we ever need one. And the time to do that is BEFORE we need one.

I'm just looking for the best of both worlds -- to be loosely bound together, enough to legitimize us in the public eye....but not to make any profound difference in the way we interact or participate in the sport. We could do a mission statement in saying that we subscribe to LNT or the "geocacher's creed"..........

What a tough line to walk! I do want some of the "yes" characteristics, and the "no" options, but I can't vote "I don't care" because I DO!! :confused:

Welcome to that fuzzy space inside my head. It isn't free to rent, but the view is often nice......:rolleyes:

Haffy
07-14-2006, 06:06 PM
I agree with everything you have said Sewin2cachin and I wish more more of everyone in here felt the same way. I think all we need to do is just come up with some sort of "Geocachers Creed" so to speak and we'll have everything right in front of us. The time will come, I'm almost certain, that we will need a unified voice and I can't think of a better organization to be able to support than the one we have right here.

tat
07-14-2006, 06:14 PM
Maybe we should schedule and event and talk this all out. Sometime in August would be great. I am free the 12th or the 19th. I would like to attend and hear what everyone has to say.

I can't make either weekend, I'll be in Montana. But, no matter what day you chose, someone won't be able to go!

I have been working with the Nature Conservency at Mt. Agamenticus. The person I talked to was actually concerned that too many cachers would visit. If we organize and are a powerful voice, I wonder if this would be percieved as a threat rather than a group that must be listened to.

We may get more benifit from being more active in trail maintenance and public education projects. This year, there was at least one CITO event. I am certain that Brewer recognizes the effort geocachers put in. CITO events do not need to include cleaning trash. They can also include any type of trail maintenace or such project.

Not to change the subhect, but is anyone up for a Mt. Agamenticus trail maintence event on 15 Oct. 2006? You heard it here first!!

dí76
07-14-2006, 06:27 PM
This here makes for the 108th post about this. For the folks that are in favor of this will you just do it. At this point we have not made any ground in awhile. It's all sounding the same. Someone needs to grab the bull by the horns and take charge. No more voting, no more talking about it just post a creed and lets get it done. It appears that we are going to ingnore the fact that right now the majority that have voted have said that the dont want to organize, and gonna beat this until folks change there mind cause they are tired of hearing about it. There are lots of gc creeds out there all ready done. Lets not reinvent the wheel.

Haffy
07-14-2006, 08:38 PM
If we organize and are a powerful voice, I wonder if this would be percieved as a threat rather than a group that must be listened to.




You really can't be serious Tat. I can't for the life of me understand why forming an organization would be perceived as a threat. I agree with Dave1976 we are just rehashing the same things here over and over again and getting nowhere. Let's either get someone to put together a simple platform for this geocaching group we have here or just let some other group do just that and let them be the voice for all that we have worked for here.

Maybe after this weekend we won't have to worry about anything anyway.

LaughingTerry
07-14-2006, 10:24 PM
I don't see anything wrong with having an organization as long as it isn't telling us how we can place or chase caches, or make special demands to have a meet.

My feeling is that if me have an organization the main thing it should do is to work with the land management people, the park people, etc. The same thing we do now basically. Like Hiram and FireFighterJake to name a couple. The mission statement would be to work to keep geocaching something we can all do wherever we go..

dí76
07-19-2006, 07:53 AM
This is why we will never acheive what we talk about. I dont want the leadership role in this but somebody must have. We get to a point where it is a fair assumption that we dont want an organization, but do want a creed or what ever you want to call it....... then what nothing happens. Much like the coin. We talk talk talk. Someone has to garb the bull by the horns and take it if you want it bad enough.:)

Trezurs*-R-*Fun
07-19-2006, 08:44 AM
This is why we will never acheive what we talk about. I dont want the leadership role in this but somebody must have. We get to a point where it is a fair assumption that we dont want an organization, but do want a creed or what ever you want to call it....... then what nothing happens. Much like the coin. We talk talk talk. Someone has to garb the bull by the horns and take it if you want it bad enough.:)


I've had my say and things got bogged down in details. Then the MGA came out and what they offer and what they stand for seems to be very much what I was concerned with. I can't see re-inventing the wheel so I've paid my dues to the MGA and will work with them to help create an organization that will protect, enhance and promote geocaching here in Maine. I truly hope others consider and also add their voice to help face any future challanges..


Cache On!!!!!!

brdad
07-19-2006, 02:27 PM
I've had my say and things got bogged down in details. Then the MGA came out and what they offer and what they stand for seems to be very much what I was concerned with. I can't see re-inventing the wheel so I've paid my dues to the MGA and will work with them to help create an organization that will protect, enhance and promote geocaching here in Maine. I truly hope others consider and also add their voice to help face any future challanges..


Cache On!!!!!!

Well, hopefully you have not given up on geocachingmaine.org completely. Your input into this thread seems to have swayed many in your direction, maybe not fully, but partly. I think we all want to be prepared for what may come to the future of Maine geocaching, but we do not want to lose the fun of the game, either.

Smitty & Co.
07-19-2006, 03:12 PM
I've had my say and things got bogged down in details. Then the MGA came out and what they offer and what they stand for seems to be very much what I was concerned with. I can't see re-inventing the wheel so I've paid my dues to the MGA and will work with them to help create an organization that will protect, enhance and promote geocaching here in Maine. I truly hope others consider and also add their voice to help face any future challanges..


Cache On!!!!!!

Well good for you!! I'm more inclined to go the other way. I 'm seriously considering putting all my caches up for adoption and just letting this hobby go. There is so much more to life than geocaching. I certainly don't want to be associated with those that backstab, suckup, lie, cheat and then try to convince people "that its just a game" Without mentioning anyone's name, I can tell you I have bumped into these cachers and they play cutthroat caching at its best. They tell me that the "reason" for tearing up the roadway in a historically sensitive area was that they had only the info on their PDA and didn't read the cache description....lame excuse if you ask me.(just too lazy to walk a couple hundred feet) On another occasion, I reply to a newspaper article on geocaching and invite that writer to join us here at geocachingmaine.org and then get slammed for inviting the media to "our" site both in their response in the paper and in an angry email sent to me. These same cachers also did a bunch a caches in the Bangor area that had in their respective descriptions not to be done at night. However, they seem to think that because there are no real rules that they can disregard that info and cache at whatever damn time of day that they want to. Again, I won't mention specific names but it has been said on these forums a couple of times,......"I've never met a cacher I didn't like or get along with" well, I wish I could say the same but in all honesty, I've met a few I didn't care for and certainly wouldn't want to be associated with them. Thanks for the fun that we did have and thanks Rick for the website. I hope you all can get it together as a united front but from what I see and read, I doubt it. C-ya!!

Trezurs*-R-*Fun
07-19-2006, 06:05 PM
Well, hopefully you have not given up on geocachingmaine.org completely. Your input into this thread seems to have swayed many in your direction, maybe not fully, but partly. I think we all want to be prepared for what may come to the future of Maine geocaching, but we do not want to lose the fun of the game, either.


I hope my post didn't sound like a farewell. GeocachingMaine.org still offers the best of the geocaching world, I honestly believe that. I'm personally concerned and want to make sure that I'm in a position to help protect geocaching in the state of Maine. If it comes to that. A lot of what I bring to the MGA comes straight from this site. For the most part GeocachingMaine.Org has made me the cacher I am today. The people here have a lot to offer and I would never turn my back on them. I'm hoping that I can voice those things that are important "here", "there".. Did that make sense?

My joining the MGA is in no way a reflection on this forum. I would still hope we could organize here but until we do (or don't) I hope I'm positioning myself where I can do the most good. Or at least voice my concerns.


Cache On!!!

Haffy
07-19-2006, 06:14 PM
I'm sure we will be in a better position very soon to stand up to any scrutiny that anyone might have. Hopefully we can get on the right track and move ahead with this being the best site for Maine geocachers. We have the best of the best here as far as I am concerned.

Kacky
07-19-2006, 06:48 PM
Well good for you!! I'm more inclined to go the other way. I 'm seriously considering putting all my caches up for adoption and just letting this hobby go. There is so much more to life than geocaching. I certainly don't want to be associated with those that backstab, suckup, lie, cheat and then try to convince people "that its just a game" Without mentioning anyone's name, I can tell you I have bumped into these cachers and they play cutthroat caching at its best. They tell me that the "reason" for tearing up the roadway in a historically sensitive area was that they had only the info on their PDA and didn't read the cache description....lame excuse if you ask me.(just too lazy to walk a couple hundred feet) On another occasion, I reply to a newspaper article on geocaching and invite that writer to join us here at geocachingmaine.org and then get slammed for inviting the media to "our" site both in their response in the paper and in an angry email sent to me. These same cachers also did a bunch a caches in the Bangor area that had in their respective descriptions not to be done at night. However, they seem to think that because there are no real rules that they can disregard that info and cache at whatever damn time of day that they want to. Again, I won't mention specific names but it has been said on these forums a couple of times,......"I've never met a cacher I didn't like or get along with" well, I wish I could say the same but in all honesty, I've met a few I didn't care for and certainly wouldn't want to be associated with them. Thanks for the fun that we did have and thanks Rick for the website. I hope you all can get it together as a united front but from what I see and read, I doubt it. C-ya!!
You're singling people out. There are some popular members who have done many of the same things, either out of competitiveness or enthusiasm. "Too lazy" or whatever, is a judgement and just an opinion.

Come on guys, does it REALLY matter who formed the group first?

MoxieMan
07-19-2006, 08:17 PM
You're singling people out. There are some popular members who have done many of the same things, either out of competitiveness or enthusiasm. "Too lazy" or whatever, is a judgement and just an opinion.

Come on guys, does it REALLY matter who formed the group first?

Kacky,

You are right...Smitty's tirade seems to be directed at 1 or 2 people (remaining nameless of course) for an a single incident. This is just a game and some people play a little harder than others. End of story...beginning of a new website. By the way, I sent my check in today. And I didn't even go to the meeting on Saturday.

we3beans
07-20-2006, 11:01 AM
I certainly don't want to be associated with those that backstab, suckup, lie, cheat and then try to convince people "that its just a game" Without mentioning anyone's name, I can tell you I have bumped into these cachers and they play cutthroat caching at its best.

Unfortunately, this is not a "one time" incident, nor does it refer to one cacher. As I stated early on, one of these cachers approached someone "from away" and went into a tirade about other cachers esp. those in "northern" Maine. And then to those "northern" cachers faces were pleasent and courteous. (I'd like to reiterate that this is a wholly separate incident than what Smitty is talking about...I have direct knowledge and will ask the person this happened to if they want me to name them so you can directly ask them questions.)

Nor is there ever an excuse (as far as I'm concerned) to blatenly disregard cache descriptions or hours of operation. THAT is the type of behavior that makes it hard for all of us and puts restrictions on where caches get placed. We won't be able to use public access places if we are destroying the habitat or accessing property when we aren't supposed to (ie. after dark.)

Kacky
07-20-2006, 01:05 PM
Why not take it up with the individuals? This seems like an inefficient way to resolve a grievance.

we3beans
07-20-2006, 02:10 PM
Simply stated, (as I've stated before), I won't become a member of an organization with "leaders" who behave like that. And I think other folks should know who they are dealing with when they do join an organization. (there are other organizations that I don't recommend either). I see no need to take it up with them as I cannot change anyone except myself, so why beat my head against a wall? If they want to behave like that (and it has been a pattern) than why make the effort. I was only sharing the information I have so others can make an educated choice about the kind of people they would be associating with.

becket
07-20-2006, 04:08 PM
Simply stated, (as I've stated before), I won't become a member of an organization with "leaders" who behave like that. And I think other folks should know who they are dealing with when they do join an organization. (there are other organizations that I don't recommend either). I see no need to take it up with them as I cannot change anyone except myself, so why beat my head against a wall? If they want to behave like that (and it has been a pattern) than why make the effort. I was only sharing the information I have so others can make an educated choice about the kind of people they would be associating with.

ditto! and well stated!

Kacky
07-20-2006, 05:14 PM
I do agree that you're not going to change it. But if you need to avoid everyone who has driven where they shouldn't, gone for midnight FTF's in daytime areas, or gossipped, you've got a full time job just keeping track.

dí76
07-20-2006, 05:39 PM
Lets keep this on track....

The last few post have had nothing to do with the toppic;)

Trezurs*-R-*Fun
07-20-2006, 07:41 PM
Simply stated, (as I've stated before), I won't become a member of an organization with "leaders" who behave like that. And I think other folks should know who they are dealing with when they do join an organization. (there are other organizations that I don't recommend either). I see no need to take it up with them as I cannot change anyone except myself, so why beat my head against a wall? If they want to behave like that (and it has been a pattern) than why make the effort. I was only sharing the information I have so others can make an educated choice about the kind of people they would be associating with.

If you become a member of an organization, regardless of the "leaders" you have the right to say something. Without joining you really have no right to complain how they are behaving, if you join you are now in a position to make positive changes. Look at it this way, don't join as a follower, join as a leader and help make positive changes. Also remember, if you don't place yourself in a position to change things then those that portray a bad image are free to represent geocaching as they see fit. Be pro-active and not re-active.

I understand the issues, I was one of the first to complain when someone drove into a cache when I strictly forbade it. I told that individual what I thought and hopefully we have come to some sort of understanding.

The big issue here isn't who is doing what, its what we want our message to be to the non-geocaching community. We should focus on that understanding that there are "differing" personalities out there.

I hate to see something that could be positive tainted because of personality differences. I'm not advocating "forgiving and forgetting", I advocating moving on and addressing the bigger issues that can greatly challenge geocaching.

we3beans
07-21-2006, 10:03 AM
The only reason I brought any of this up again was because some had suggested that Smitty was not being reasonable. I was trying to defend him and his choice.
And respectfully TRF, I disagree. When you support an organization whose message is one thing and they do another it's hipocracy, not "differing" personalities.

Now, back on topic!
:-)

attroll
07-21-2006, 12:11 PM
Could we please stop this now her said she said type of discuusion. We need to not let the past issues consume us. We need to move on. I think people on this site know what the founding members of The MGA did in the past before they formed The MGA and if this is going to be there downfall then let it, but we do not need to continue to dwell on it.

It is done and over with. Lets not make ourselves look bad by constantly bring this up over and over again. It will get us no where.

Kacky
07-21-2006, 01:38 PM
Do you mind if people join both?

dí76
07-21-2006, 01:42 PM
Do you mind if people join both?

People should be encouraged to join both as they both have something unique to offer. :)

brdad
07-21-2006, 01:49 PM
Do you mind if people join both?

It may be the only way to know what's going on. Despite what they claim, they are competition. Both are supplying similar services to a similar group of people. Just like when you want to know news, you might look at two different TV stations, there is bound to eventually be something on one site that is lacking on the other.

team teebow
07-21-2006, 02:24 PM
Could we please stop this now her said she said type of discuusion. We need to not let the past issues consume us. We need to move on. I think people on this site know what the founding members of The MGA did in the past before they formed The MGA and if this is going to be there downfall then let it, but we do not need to continue to dwell on it.

It is done and over with. Lets not make ourselves look bad by constantly bring this up over and over again. It will get us no where.

I agree. We REALLy need to move on and do what we need to do to protect Geocaching in Maine and make it an enjoyable sport for EVERYONE. Let's not dwell on the past and move FORWARD......



Team Teebow 2

brdad
07-21-2006, 04:50 PM
I would also suggest, knowing that the MGA fears posting to this site, that any comments should be posted on their site. Not much sense talking to the wall here.

Faolan
07-21-2006, 05:05 PM
I for one am staying right where I am, I am a happy member of both geocaching.com and geocachingmaine.org. So far, in my limited involvement in the hobby, I have found all the useful information I need between these two websites. Right now I consider the geocachingmaine site the Official representative for Maine and I believe the folks over at the geocaching.com site do as well. It was thru them that I found this site.

Just my 2 cents worth!

dí76
07-21-2006, 06:58 PM
If any one does care. I have learned alot and have learned that some times people dont like to listen to folks shooting there mouth off. I have done my share of that. I would like to point out that in paragraph 4 section a clearly says these topics of conversation are unacceptable.http://www.geocaching.com/about/termsofuse.aspx
I would encourage all to read them just to freshen up a bit. Me included:o

attroll
07-21-2006, 07:03 PM
Believe me Dave we know you have. These are rules for the Groundspeak forums.

dí76
07-21-2006, 07:09 PM
Believe me Dave we know you have. These are rules for the Groundspeak forums.

They dont apply here??

Haffy
07-21-2006, 07:27 PM
Have you read any of the flaming and other crap that goes on at the Groundspeak forums? We are mild here compared to there. And I am not condoning what has gone on in here either just making a point that they don't conform to their own rules either.

attroll
07-21-2006, 07:29 PM
They dont apply here??
I did not say that I was pointing out that those were the rules for the Groundspeak forums. If these are the rules you are referring to then please show me where someone has broken these rules and I will apologize for missing the post and not deleting it.



(a) Upload, post or otherwise transmit any content that is unlawful, harmful, threatening, abusive, harassing, tortious, defamatory, slanderous, vulgar, obscene, libelous, invasive of another's privacy, hateful, embarrassing, or racially, ethnically or otherwise objectionable to any other person or entity.


Here is our web site user agreement: http://www.geocachingmaine.org/index.php?page=agreement

RockyHa
08-15-2006, 10:38 PM
Not that it matters, but my vote is "No" because the different areas of the state will not will not be equally represented. Unfortunatelt the way the voting is set up now, Organization could actually hurt Geocaching in Maine. An official elected board from Bangor probably isnt going to be very effective representation in western or southern Maine.

Beach Comber
08-15-2006, 11:03 PM
This approach is a beginning point only. It is anticipated that the board will develop suggestions that will help to ensure that the state, as a whole, is represented.

brdad
08-16-2006, 05:50 AM
Not that it matters, but my vote is "No" because the different areas of the state will not will not be equally represented. Unfortunatelt the way the voting is set up now, Organization could actually hurt Geocaching in Maine. An official elected board from Bangor probably isnt going to be very effective representation in western or southern Maine.

Have we allready voted and decided the "winners" are from Bangor?

All members were contacted, any member could have been nominated. Three of them are from close to Bangor. The others are from other areas including Western, Southern, and you forgot Northern Maine.

If you feel you want a board member from each area, vote for those nominees.

RockyHa
08-16-2006, 10:30 AM
All members were contacted, any member could have been nominated. Three of them are from close to Bangor. The others are from other areas including Western, Southern, and you forgot Northern Maine.

If you feel you want a board member from each area, vote for those nominees.

All members were not contacted prior to nominations. This is something those responding to the poll decided "Not to Do". The folks that have decided to move forward with this are attempting to creat an official board that represents Geocachers in Maine.

I haven't forgotten any area of the state. I am the one that is critical of the fact that as set up the outcome will not provide representation of the entire state. LOL if elections for state representitives were done the way this is set up, I would be voting for the folks Alaska is sending to congress.

tat
08-16-2006, 10:37 AM
Not that it matters, but my vote is "No" because the different areas of the state will not will not be equally represented. Unfortunatelt the way the voting is set up now, Organization could actually hurt Geocaching in Maine. An official elected board from Bangor probably isnt going to be very effective representation in western or southern Maine.

There are candidates from as far south as Kittery (me) and as far north as the county (J_Cyr), from the islands off the coast (Beach Comber) to the mountains (Where R We).

But representation does not need to be an issue. The goal is to determine what Maine cachers want, not what the board wants or what the loudest people want. The board will need to work out all the details of how to best represent everyone and they will need your ideas.

It is posible that the majority of people do not want an organization, but this poll did not work because people changed their minds and we cannot tell what the results would be now. The question is also not very well phrased. We do have problems that need to be resolved. But, "organizing" is too broad of a term and means too many things. I think each person here has a different idea of what an "organization" is.

To be more specific, we need to solve at least two main problems:

1. We need a way to make decisions on projects, such as a Maine coin and working with land access issues.

2. We also have had a problem with managing the site. Many people have complained about the negative tone at times.

We do not want to tell people what to do, but rather learn what people want to do.

WhereRWe?
08-16-2006, 10:42 AM
It is posible that the majority of people do not want an organization, but this poll did not work because people changed their minds and we cannot tell what the results would be now. The question is also not very well phrased. We do have problems that need to be resolved. But, "organizing" is too broad of a term and means too many things. I think each person here has a different idea of what an "organization" is.



Accept it or not, "we" are already an organization. We have members. We have a meeting place (while 25 years ago it would have been in a building, we not meet on the internet). We have group events. We - as a group - created and sold a geocaching coin.

But we need - at least - a milimal level of organization to the group. That's why an advisory board was suggested to represent the group - WHEN REQUIRED. :D :D

Beach Comber
08-16-2006, 10:56 AM
All members were not contacted prior to nominations.

It was not our intent to leave individuals out of the loop on this topic or the nominating process. Individuals who were registered users of the website at the time the e-mail was sent (8/6/06 at 9:25pm) and provided an e-mail address at the time they registered and that address is active an e-mail should have been received announcing the nomination process was underway.

Another e-mail was sent on 8/15 announcing the voting process would be opened. If you didn't receive either of these announcements you may want to check the e-mail address you have listed and/or check in with attroll to see if you are on the list.

If you you are not the member that you are referring to in your post, perhaps you could pass this information along as well.

Thanks for telling us!

hoys
08-16-2006, 11:03 AM
I'm joining this conversation very late, I realize, and the organization is already forming. However, I feel that having an organization is vital to the future of Geocaching in Maine, and I think this group is composed of the right people at the right time to do it.

I spent a few years in Kentucky working for a company down there. While there, we had a few active cachers in Lexington who decided that we wanted to form a social club and get together for a meal and a cache hunt from time to time. We named ourselves the "Geocachers of Central Kentucky" and on a lark I set up a web site so we could organize meals and meetings and cache hunts (upgraded from our original Yahoo! group).


Then, all hades broke loose. Someone placed a cache in the State Nature Preserve system, and someone posted a casual comment about using a shortcut to get to the cache. Unfortunately, said shortcut was through a closed trail that had been closed for environmental reasons (rare plant species along the trail). The State Nature Preserve people were (understandably) rather upset, and pulled the cache. The cache owner did not respond to their messages, so their first impression of caching was, shall we say, not positive.

They managed to find our site, and asked to meet and see if we could work out something for this cache, and to keep people from damaging their nature preserve land any further. We agreed to meet and discuss it, and they called several other land management agencies and invited them to the meeting as well. Given their impression of Geocaching, we were facing a potential statewide ban.

So, suddenly, we had the State Parks people, the local parks and rec division, the National Forest people, and several other land management agencies meeting with us. Many of them had only heard of Geocaching through the unfortunate incident with the State Nature Preserve. We hastily threw together a presentation, self-selected officers from the 5 people who were most active, and went to the meeting.

While the meeting went well, and we managed to get some of the land managers to adopt clear and workable rules, it was a hectic time trying to get the organization put together, and we also raised the ire of a number of Geocachers who felt that we were trying to "take over" Geocaching in the state, or form some sort of busybody rules committee that would tell them what to do and what not to do.

We finally decided to become a "clearinghouse" for rules that land managers developed, and an advisory board for any land management agency that wanted to develop rules. The rest of the organization is devoted to keeping the lines of communication as open as possible among all the Geocachers in the state, organizing CITOs and other land-management-agency-friendly activities, and of course having fun.

Later, when we re-chartered as the "Geocachers of Kentucky" after a number of local organizations in different areas of the state asked to merge, we tried to keep the organization as informal as possible. Our discussion board has sections for each area of the state, as well as statewide discussions, and as folks form new "local" organizations, we encourage them to set up their own sites, but we also give them a section on our discussion board so they can keep the lines of communication open.

Anyway, after that long-winded bit of fluff...

I think Geocaching Maine is doing the right thing - forming and organizing into a proper organization BEFORE you face a crisis like our organization did.

Maybe you never will. But I, for one, am glad to know that there will be an organization representing Geocaching here in Maine, with the credibility to talk to land management agencies.

RockyHa
08-16-2006, 02:16 PM
It was not our intent to leave individuals out of the loop on this topic or the nominating process. Individuals who were registered users of the website at the time the e-mail was sent (8/6/06 at 9:25pm) and provided an e-mail address at the time they registered and that address is active an e-mail should have been received announcing the nomination process was underway.

Another e-mail was sent on 8/15 announcing the voting process would be opened. If you didn't receive either of these announcements you may want to check the e-mail address you have listed and/or check in with attroll to see if you are on the list.

If you you are not the member that you are referring to in your post, perhaps you could pass this information along as well.

Thanks for telling us!

I have been a member since 5/15/05 with the same active email address. I recieved the 8/15 get out the vote post, but not the 8/6 post. A glitch in the program, was I the only one left out of the loop, was it intentional (I certainly would hope not) I don't know what happened. If this were a board that was only concerned with the geocachingmaine.org web site and forum it wouldn't be a big deal, but since this board plans to represent itself as representing itself as representing geocachers across the state of Maine with landowners and law makers it is an issue for me and perhaps many other geocachers throughout the state of Maine.

Haffy
08-16-2006, 03:02 PM
I'm sure it wasn't intentional that you were left out of the loop as you say. I'm sure Rick (Attroll) the webmaster will look into why you weren't notified. As with any mass emailing that occurs to get the info to all members sometimes glitches do happen. Unfortunate that you weren't notified but at least you got a chance to vote and if you have been following these forums at all lately you would have known about the nominations and the vote. At the very least, you now have the opportinity to voice your concerns and hopefully will become one of many who will have a say as to what takes place in the geocaching community here in Maine.

Beach Comber
08-16-2006, 03:11 PM
I have been a member since 5/15/05 with the same active email address. I recieved the 8/15 get out the vote post, but not the 8/6 post. A glitch in the program, was I the only one left out of the loop, was it intentional (I certainly would hope not) I don't know what happened. If this were a board that was only concerned with the geocachingmaine.org web site and forum it wouldn't be a big deal, but since this board plans to represent itself as representing itself as representing geocachers across the state of Maine with landowners and law makers it is an issue for me and perhaps many other geocachers throughout the state of Maine.

I agree with Haffy - it is a glitch. This is definitely something that will be checked out.

I appreciate that you are willing to express your concerns. I believe that the group that coordinates communication, etc. on the website will represent state as a whole with the best of intents. I hope that you will continue to watch the posts and participate in the conversations. Share your opinion - it is the best thing you can do to help ensure that things move forward in the best possible way. It is not the intent of this group of 5, the "board" to dictate the events on this website or throughout the state. It is truly an effort to take a more coordinated approach to our activities, projects, and communication. Some of the communications of the past (especially 6 months) and the challenge of moving projects (like the coin) forward are the types of motivators that have helped to bring us to this point. I believe that we will see some good things happen!

Thank you again for sharing your concerns - please continue to do so - it is in the best interest of the hobby!

WhereRWe?
08-16-2006, 03:15 PM
I have been a member since 5/15/05 with the same active email address. I recieved the 8/15 get out the vote post, but not the 8/6 post.

Well, the Aug 6 post was a request for nominations, but you got the Aug 15 voting notice, which was the omportant one. Remember, we have over 750 members, so with that many emails going out, one or two might still be floating around out there! LOL!

I see you're from Rumford. Have you placed any caches? We're planning on heading over that way next week on our way to New Hampshire. W've got most of them in that area but still have a few to go. :D :D

attroll
08-16-2006, 08:24 PM
I am very sorry you never got the first one. It had to be a glitch unless you had your "receive administrator emails" turned off at the time. The system did a mass email to everyone that had "receive administrator emails" turned on.

dí76
08-16-2006, 08:28 PM
The other possiblilty is that an email filter may have checked that email into the junk drawer. I get some emails from gc.com in my email and some go directly to the junk drawer and I have to go ge them. I would check your filter aswell.:)

RockyHa
08-16-2006, 10:04 PM
I am very sorry you never got the first one. It had to be a glitch unless you had your "receive administrator emails" turned off at the time. The system did a mass email to everyone that had "receive administrator emails" turned on.

Don't know "Recieve administrator emails" was turned on I checked settings to day to see if any of my settings could have caused the problem, it should have come through but didn't.

RockyHa
08-16-2006, 10:09 PM
The other possiblilty is that an email filter may have checked that email into the junk drawer. I get some emails from gc.com in my email and some go directly to the junk drawer and I have to go ge them. I would check your filter aswell.:)

LOL If iit was filtered it wasn't on my end.

team moxiepup
08-16-2006, 11:04 PM
For what its worth... we didn't see the first email either. We did, however, see the second one. It is possible that a few of the mass emails did not go through. It might be worth looking into for future mailings. Possibly break down the number of emails sent out at any one time... chop the list in half or quarters. :)

attroll
08-17-2006, 12:01 AM
There is a possibility that it could have been my fault on the first email not reaching everyone. It was the very first time I did a mass email with the forum software and I may have done something wrong. But it looks like the last two went out and everyone got those. So maybe I have the hang of it now. So you can blame me if you want.

RockyHa
08-17-2006, 01:08 AM
I don't think blame is the issue. The issue is the only 59 people voted and the majority voted "No". It has been stated that everyone had an oppertunity to participate in the nomination process and they did not.

Clearly this is being rushed into. The discussion indicates that this board is more than just a board to oversee the activities of this web site and forum but will claim to represent the membership in matters outside the forums and internet (such as matters of land access). if this board is to have any credability as actual representatives of the members of this group, then an effort must be made to actually make it so.

First a mass mailing should have been made anouncing the discussion of the matter stating when the poll would be posted (after a period of discussion). The poll should conducted and abided by.

If the membership decided to move forward, rules should be set up for the election before it is conducted not in a thread after the election has been started.

Rpapaman
08-17-2006, 04:40 AM
Please, cast me as a 'NO' in the vote for formulating an organization! I think this would be an inappropriate move for such a fine hobby.

brdad
08-17-2006, 05:58 AM
I don't think blame is the issue. The issue is the only 59 people voted and the majority voted "No". It has been stated that everyone had an oppertunity to participate in the nomination process and they did not.

Clearly this is being rushed into. The discussion indicates that this board is more than just a board to oversee the activities of this web site and forum but will claim to represent the membership in matters outside the forums and internet (such as matters of land access). if this board is to have any credability as actual representatives of the members of this group, then an effort must be made to actually make it so.

First a mass mailing should have been made anouncing the discussion of the matter stating when the poll would be posted (after a period of discussion). The poll should conducted and abided by.

If the membership decided to move forward, rules should be set up for the election before it is conducted not in a thread after the election has been started.


If you read though the entire thread, you'll see many people changed their mind to some extent. A discussion should have come before the vote - we know that now. Myself, I am still middle of the road. I don't want a powerful board, but I think we need a few people to see voting, contacting members, and things of that sort get done when needed and in the proper time frame. Regarding land access, the board will probably have little to do with that as well, short of helping getting the right people together when needed and getting that information available on the web site. Many of our members allready have relationships with different land owners/managers and the board is better off to back them up when needed than to take over the process. Whether I am elected or not, I have no intention of letting the board be the only people representing GeocachingMaine.org.

We have to start somewhere. That's why we had a physical meeting to decide just where to start. It's hard to make guidelines for doing this stuff when there is no one to help the process appeal to the majority and to go more smoothly.

So let's not get all excited. Let's get our trial group elected and back them up as well. All GeocachingMaine.org members will be able to voice their opinions of approval or disapproval as time goes on. If, in 6 months or a year, we decide we need to change the members, purpose, or existance of this group we will do so.

dí76
08-17-2006, 06:32 AM
I like what was said earlier. I got both emails but since I had been following the forumns I knew everything that was talked about.
;)

RockyHa
08-17-2006, 06:57 AM
"Snip"
We have to start somewhere. That's why we had a physical meeting to decide just where to start. It's hard to make guidelines for doing this stuff when there is no one to help the process appeal to the majority and to go more smoothly.

So let's not get all excited. Let's get our trial group elected and back them up as well. All GeocachingMaine.org members will be able to voice their opinions of approval or disapproval as time goes on. If, in 6 months or a year, we decide we need to change the members, purpose, or existance of this group we will do so.

I have read the thread and realise some folks may have changed their minds, but the pole says "No". Folks went into the vote knowing they couldn't change it. They should have waited untill they knew what they wanted to vote or the poll should be reposted.
If this boards only function is to represent the site owner and the site, then moving forward is fine (thats part of web site management and up to the the site owner), but to claim that this board represents the membership "Geopcachers of Maine" or the wishs of the membership "Geopcachers of Maine" is not true.

"That's why we had a physical meeting to decide just where to start." Perhaps this meeting should have been more open and involved more of the membership about to be represented.

While you may feel that this is a trial group, it isn't. Their are no terms of office set, no duties, no nuthing other than the election of a board that will be representing the membership and Geocachers of Maine.

Perhaps I appear to be argumentative and disruptive, but that is not my intent. I have seen too many good groups and good people lost from the groups over just this type of issue. Good intentions are fine and good, but in this type of endevor good intentions without adequate planning and organization are a sure recipe for failure. We have folks out there critical of our group just like our group has folks that are critical of other groups and they will be more than happy to point out the faults after the fact.

dí76
08-17-2006, 07:08 AM
I have read the thread and realise some folks may have changed their minds, but the pole says "No". Folks went into the vote knowing they couldn't change it. They should have waited untill they knew what they wanted to vote or the poll should be reposted.
If this boards only function is to represent the site owner and the site, then moving forward is fine (thats part of web site management and up to the the site owner), but to claim that this board represents the membership "Geopcachers of Maine" or the wishs of the membership "Geopcachers of Maine" is not true.

"That's why we had a physical meeting to decide just where to start." Perhaps this meeting should have been more open and involved more of the membership about to be represented.

While you may feel that this is a trial group, it isn't. Their are no terms of office set, no duties, no nuthing other than the election of a board that will be representing the membership and Geocachers of Maine.

Perhaps I appear to be argumentative and disruptive, but that is not my intent. I have seen too many good groups and good people lost from the groups over just this type of issue. Good intentions are fine and good, but in this type of endevor good intentions without adequate planning and organization are a sure recipe for failure. We have folks out there critical of our group just like our group has folks that are critical of other groups and they will be more than happy to point out the faults after the fact.

It does in fact seem that you are trying to be argumentive. Where were you when we had the meeting to talk about this stuff. If you feel this passionate about this stuff maybe you should have been a part of it before it was to late. The ball is rolling and we are at the point of voting for members.

It also seems like you have member for a long time but never had anything constructive to say until there was a topic you could argue about. Please help us in making this better instead dwelling on what has already been done and what cant be changed and add to this in a positive manner.

RockyHa
08-17-2006, 08:29 AM
It does in fact seem that you are trying to be argumentive. Where were you when we had the meeting to talk about this stuff. If you feel this passionate about this stuff maybe you should have been a part of it before it was to late. The ball is rolling and we are at the point of voting for members.

It also seems like you have member for a long time but never had anything constructive to say until there was a topic you could argue about. Please help us in making this better instead dwelling on what has already been done and what cant be changed and add to this in a positive manner.

I as perhaps some others would have been happy to attend the meeting had I been given the oppertunity. Perhaps had more members been involved I wouldn't feel the need to day anything now.

With regard to my having been around for a while and not having anything constructive to say, I see no point in repeating something someone else has already said. There have been plenty of of oppertunities to argue in the past were that my only interest. I have been attempting to help out. Nothing has been done yet that can't be undone and done right. I have made great effort to approach this in a positive manner. Over this media (the internet) it is difficult to convay that criticism has merit and is not ment simply to be disruptive and to inflame, especially when it appears to go against the good intentions of other folks trying to accomplish something.

WhereRWe?
08-17-2006, 09:21 AM
I as perhaps some others would have been happy to attend the meeting had I been given the oppertunity. Perhaps had more members been involved I wouldn't feel the need to day anything now.


As one who was involved in the planning for the meeting, I apologize if you didn't get the word. It was featured prominently on the home page of this website. The webmaster made the effort to send a personal email to ALL members. And the subject was discussed at length in these forums. I'm not sure what else could have been done.

Which reminds me of a complaint at the WWWWWW event RULOST2? and I hosted last February. While there were over 100 people there, all wearing nametags, one cacher complained that they couldn't find the group. Only two rooms in the restaurant, and it would only taken a "is this the geocaching group?" to produce a hearty welcome. But this cacher didn't connect with the group and left unhappy.

Again, there are times when you do all you can, but someone literally slips through the cracks.

:D :D

tat
08-17-2006, 09:50 AM
RockyHa:
By the way, welcome to the forum! Please keep posting!!! We need all the ideas we can get right now.

All:
This is a case of "chicken before the egg". We don't have a lot of predeterminded rules because no one here wants to make rules unilateraly. I am certain that the board will only be set for a short period of time. The maximum time we discussed at the meeting was one year and some of us prefered as short as 3 mounths. We just don't know how long it will take to properly think everything through. We obviously can't just think everything through in secret.

I don't feel we are trying to represent every cacher in Maine. We are only trying to find a way to acurately represent the views of the members of this forum.

RockyHa
08-17-2006, 10:10 AM
RockyHa:
By the way, welcome to the forum! Please keep posting!!! We need all the ideas we can get right now.



LOL I have a feeling many more statements like that could make you real unpopular.

One of the biggest reasons I have been responding to posts here is that I belong to a Penturning group that tried to organize and do bigger and better things. They were better organised in their attempt, but rushed into it. When the dust settled we lost many of the most helpfull and dedicated members of the group icludeing several of the folks elected. It has been over a year and there are still hard feelings. I hate to see the same thing happen here.

Beach Comber
08-17-2006, 10:34 AM
One of the biggest reasons I have been responding to posts here is that I belong to a Penturning group that tried to organize and do bigger and better things. They were better organised in their attempt, but rushed into it. When the dust settled we lost many of the most helpfull and dedicated members of the group icludeing several of the folks elected. It has been over a year and there are still hard feelings. I hate to see the same thing happen here.

All the more reason we want to have you share your ideas and experience! We certainly don't want that to happen here. As you can see, we are moving forward - your input will be very helpful!

attroll
08-17-2006, 10:47 AM
"That's why we had a physical meeting to decide just where to start." Perhaps this meeting should have been more open and involved more of the membership about to be represented.

Other then the email that you missed as others have mentioned there were post on the web site talking about the upcoming meeting for weeks prior to it.

Here is where we posted about having the meeting weeks prior to the meeting:
http://www.geocachingmaine.org/forum/showthread.php?t=1547

Here is the post that was on the web sites front page for a week
http://www.geocachingmaine.org/forum/showthread.php?t=1571

Here is where we asked for nominations:
http://www.geocachingmaine.org/forum/showthread.php?t=1599

I am very sorry that you were not involved in the meeting and I tried my best to get the word out and made post on the web site. It is hard to please everyone. But there is not much more then I can do except apologize.

Haffy
08-17-2006, 12:10 PM
LOL I have a feeling many more statements like that could make you real unpopular.

On the contrary we are very open minded here in this forum and try to get all opinions from everyone concerned and not just from people who may have the same goals as we do. All we are trying to do is get the ball rolling so to speak so when the time comes for a voice we will be well prepared to have answers. If you have been following the total sport of geocaching at all you will have seen that many states are regulating it very strictly and we hope to be on the forefront in this state when it comes to that. Hoepfully we won't be in a situation like that but we want to be prepared if and when it does happen. May of us have already been working with other land management groups in the past. Tat has been working with the Mt Agamenticus trusts, Hiram 357 with the Kennebec Region Land trusts and I worked for a time with the Boothbay Region Land trusts. All trying to work with and educate them on the benefits of geocaching and all contacts with these so far have been very positive.

RockyHa
08-20-2006, 07:16 AM
At the very least the poll should be deleated prior to closeing the election as the numbers aren't there to support having the election. Frankly the existance of the poll reflects poorly on the ethics of the nominees.

brdad
08-20-2006, 07:21 AM
I would suggest this thread just be closed as it has aged to the point where it should be no longer under discussion. Let's move on, people!

WhereRWe?
08-20-2006, 07:23 AM
At the very least the poll should be deleated prior to closeing the election as the numbers aren't there to support having the election. Frankly the existance of the poll reflects poorly on the ethics of the nominees.

The ethics of the nominees??? I'm sorry, "dude", but I think you owe me an apology. This has NOTHING to do with the ethics of the moninees.

A meeting of GeocachingMaine was held and THEY decided to form an Advisory Committee. Nominations for the advisory committee were made by the members. If their decision is not what you want, deal with it.

You're WAY off base!!! :mad: :mad: :mad:

WhereRWe?
08-20-2006, 07:23 AM
I would suggest this thread just be closed as it has aged to the point where it should be no longer under discussion. Let's move on, people!

I FULLY agree!

RockyHa
08-20-2006, 07:39 AM
, deal with it.

You're WAY off base!!! :mad: :mad: :mad:


The poll results say it all.

dí76
08-20-2006, 07:44 AM
I see what is going on. I think that rockyha is having trouble deciding who to vote for so they are trying to fire the nominees up to see who answers the most politically correct.:rolleyes: That was very clever. Smart thinking.:rolleyes: NOT!!!!:mad:

RockyHa
08-20-2006, 07:48 AM
I see what is going on. I think that rockyha is having trouble deciding who to vote for so they are trying to fire the nominees up to see who answers the most politically correct.:rolleyes: That was very clever. Smart thinking.:rolleyes: NOT!!!!:mad:

No sorry, I haven't much respect for politically correct or verbose empty statements, I'm more into honesty, integrety and doing things right.

dí76
08-20-2006, 07:59 AM
No sorry, I haven't much respect for politically correct or verbose empty statements, I'm more into honesty, integrety and doing things right.

I would really like to know if you have anything what so ever constructive to say. Seems like you have just been going on and on. So tell us. If we where to scrap this whole idea. What exactly would you have done differently. We have batted this around for at least the almost two years that I have been around. Maybe just maybe we missed something and you could resolve years of discussion in just the week since you showed up.

RockyHa
08-20-2006, 08:29 AM
My concern is that the poll doesn't support the election, the numbers aren't there to justify saying the membership is in favor of organizing, hence calling into question the ethics of the nominees.


Sure there are several ways to go about it. Theb best in my opinion is to form a stearing committee of individuals interested. If that is a large group, then elect leadership within the committee. Generate a propasal; makeup of the board, basic duties and responcibilities, purpose of the board, terms of office, removal of a member of the board and such. Then conduct a poll. If the membership is not in favor of something, address the membership concerns and run a new poll. Once there is a poll infavor of organizing, conduct an election and put the board to work. The board is actually representing the membership, everyone knows what they are voting for and their commitments and responcibilities. No one can come back a year from now when your trying to represent Maine Geocachers and use the poll to demonstrate that the existance of the board doesn't even represent the wishes of the members of geocachingmaine.org.

Granted not simple and probably not everyone gets what they want innitially, but leads to a lot less potential for problems down the road.

Rocky

brdad
08-20-2006, 08:49 AM
Rocky, this poll is old news. As we have said at least once before, there has been a more recent vote. The organization will move on. It would be nice if you accepted that plan and moved along with us, instead of debating issues which are null and void now. We may as well be debating the writing of the Declaration of Independence.

dí76
08-20-2006, 08:51 AM
My concern is that the poll doesn't support the election, the numbers aren't there to justify saying the membership is in favor of organizing, hence calling into question the ethics of the nominees.


Sure there are several ways to go about it. Theb best in my opinion is to form a stearing committee of individuals interested. If that is a large group, then elect leadership within the committee. Generate a propasal; makeup of the board, basic duties and responcibilities, purpose of the board, terms of office, removal of a member of the board and such. Then conduct a poll. If the membership is not in favor of something, address the membership concerns and run a new poll. Once there is a poll infavor of organizing, conduct an election and put the board to work. The board is actually representing the membership, everyone knows what they are voting for and their commitments and responcibilities. No one can come back a year from now when your trying to represent Maine Geocachers and use the poll to demonstrate that the existance of the board doesn't even represent the wishes of the members of geocachingmaine.org.

Granted not simple and probably not everyone gets what they want innitially, but leads to a lot less potential for problems down the road.

Rocky

Much of this is in motion. I agree that the poll doesnt support the fact that we moved forward to start putting togeather a list of nominees, Girlmate and I where strongly against forming an organization. After many folks started sharing their point of views they swayed our decision the other way. So all of this being said I would beleive that we where not the only ones that changed our minds. Remember the poll was placed then we voted and as we discussed it in the forumns many minds where changed.

tat
08-20-2006, 09:08 AM
... form a stearing committee of individuals interested. If that is a large group, then elect leadership within the committee. Generate a propasal; makeup of the board, basic duties and responcibilities, purpose of the board, terms of office, removal of a member of the board and such. Then conduct a poll. If the membership is not in favor of something, address the membership concerns and run a new poll. Once there is a poll infavor of organizing, conduct an election and put the board to work. ...


I could not have said it better! This is exactly what we are doing. We have a large group, over 750! We are now electing leadership within the committe. They will generate a proposal with all of the details.

You are part of the committe, along with everyone else. I cannot stress how important your input is. We are not leaving anyone out of the discussions.

We need ideas. We need eveyone to present their opinons. You may notice the tone of the discussion gets a bit heated at times, but don't let that slow you down.

We also need to get this resolved. The final outcome may well be to not organize at all, although I doubt it. Our completely disorganzed approach has caused a lot of harm already. I will not get into any of that here, but if you want to know more, I'd gladly email you enough threads to let you see for yourself.

WhereRWe?
08-20-2006, 10:18 AM
Sure there are several ways to go about it. Theb best in my opinion is to form a stearing committee of individuals interested.

What do you think this is all about??? :confused: :confused:

The name "steering committee" (my suggestion) was rejected as it implied that the committee would be "steering" the group in a certain direction. Since this was not the case, the name "Advisory Committe" was adopted.

Nominations of members interested in being on the committee were made by members attending the meeting, from which 5 members will be selected by ballot.

Sheesh!

attroll
08-20-2006, 11:32 AM
This poll is old news as someone posted. There is no sense dwelling on this anymore since we have moved on. The reason we moved on and forward with creating a five member committee is because once a vote was placed on the web site regarding the question we are now discussing here you could not change your vote. This is the way the software is currently written. When people voted most of them voted against organizing, then when they read some of the replies that others posted it changed there mind and then they tried to change there vote not realizing they could not. They sent me PM's and emails asking me to change there vote.

This is why we had a meeting and sent out a mass email informing the entire membership about the meeting ahead of time. It seems that one person did not get the email due to some sort of glitch and I apologize for that. But if everyone was following the posts on the web site then they have no reason not to know about the meeting.

I am now closing this thread. So letís move on, your either going to support the organization or your not. If you choose not to support the organization then you can still come here and use the web site. The organization movement has nothing to do with the web site.