View Full Version : The past - FTF a Thon and Bangor



Gob-ler
07-21-2006, 04:50 PM
I have read what has been said by We3Beans and Smitty on the site and while I have already responded here quite some time ago I thought maybe one last attemt might help clear a few things up, maybe not, but I thought I might try.

Driving to the cache. We were wireless and when we first saw the cache listing we just grabbed the coordinates and were off in the spirit of the FTF a Thon. I think others were doing much the same sort of thing.

I was not in the vehicle when this occured. We pulled up to the cache road and I got out and walked down the road to the cache sight. Why John drove down a little later I do not know, but I do know I had nothing to do with it. TRF was there and knew that it happened and John did apologize on the spot. John was very careful when leaving and did not tear anything up. Actually, the damage that was there was from 4 wheelers from previous days when the temps were warm enough for the ground to thaw a bit. The ground was frozen when we were there. This is not an excuse, just the way it happened. Also, this was not the only driving where you are not supposed to incident that happened that day. We don't hear anymore about the other ones that happened.

As for the Bangor thing, there are attributes attached to the caches there that are not supported by the properties where the caches are placed. I do not remember exactly how many caches there were, but in each and every case we looked carefully for posted restrictions in hours that supported the suggestions in the cache attributes. There were no restrictions on any of the caches but one and intrestingly enough the boat lauch had restricted hours (daylight to dark) and the cache listing had none. We did the boat launch cache at daylight and headed for home.

I know it may be difficult, but do cache hiders have the right to limit access in listings to places where the landowners (public) have placed no restrictions? I personally do not think cache hiders have that perogative unless the landowner or land manager has requested it. I do not believe any such posted restrictions were in place for any of the cache locations we did.

The cache hider in this instance and myself have talked this through and I think he understands were I am coming from, at least it appears to be that from our emails and I do understand where he is coming from.

As for the incessant ranting on the websight by a handfull about the "unnamed" cachers, I can only suggest that it is not doing anyone any good to keep harping on the past. I have moved on and have believe it or not changed some of my positions on some of the issues.

I do not think the real issue is what happened so much as it is that we came up and found all those caches. Maybe I am wrong, but that is what it looks like to me.

Do I expect you or anyone else to change your mind? Not really, but there are two or more sides to every story. The truth usually is somewhere in the midst, sometimes you have to look for it.

If We3Beans or Smitty or anyone else wants to meet and work this out I am perfectly willing to do just that, just let me know and I'll be there. I'll even buy the coffee.

Would I do what I did again? Probably not, but at the same time this occured at a time when tensions were very high. There was a lot being said back and forth by a lot of people. If I chose to do so I could share some of the hateful emails I have received from folks that are chock full of errors and misconceptions. They heard this and they heard that. Much of it is not correct.

As it relates to this post and the information set forth I am willing to work it out and do my part to put this to rest where it belongs.

dí76
07-21-2006, 05:07 PM
So Gobbler,

You, I, John and Stephan have certainly had out share of emails back and fourth. We put that behind us and I fear that this will never go away. As much as we would all like to move on I think that many folks happen to want a certain amount of drama and are not complete with out. This I am sure will become folklore told to there children and grand children.

I to hope this goes away some. I know a website where this S**T doesnt keep getting brought up. I may join you there.:)

Gob-ler
07-21-2006, 07:54 PM
I too just want it to go away Dave. I think if we could all go back and do some things differently we would probably have a much different picture we would be dealing with.

What I would really like to see is the two groups working together and maybe just maybe morphing into something that neither one is currently that would be bigger and better than anything we currently have or even at this point could dream about.

I am game for just about anything that would be better than what we have at this point.

It was good meeting you the other day. I certainly enjoyed it. Why we were even friendly were we not? Amazing isn't it?

Somewhere over the rainbow - - -

dí76
07-21-2006, 07:57 PM
I too just want it to go away Dave. I think if we could all go back and do some things differently we would probably have a much different picture we would be dealing with.

What I would really like to see is the two groups working together and maybe just maybe morphing into something that neither one is currently that would be bigger and better than anything we currently have or even at this point could dream about.

I am game for just about anything that would be better than what we have at this point.

It was good meeting you the other day. I certainly enjoyed it. Why we were even friendly were we not? Amazing isn't it?

Somewhere over the rainbow - - -

:) :) :) :) :) :) :)

attroll
07-21-2006, 08:03 PM
Dick and Dave I agree with you both and what I would really like to see is the two groups working together and becoming one group instead of two divisions. But that is not up to me to decide.

Gob-ler
07-21-2006, 08:17 PM
Maybe it is something that can be discussed at some point in time. Now may not be best, but maybe sometime.

I do know one thing, we all want the same things. We all want Caching in Maine to be the best it can be. Here's to a better future!

GeoMaine
07-22-2006, 04:44 AM
There is an ancient saying by the Chinese people:

"If you wait by the side of the river long enough, eventually you will see the bodies of your enemies floating by..."

Well, I waited at the side of the river for about a day and a half and now I'm COMPLETELY BORED out of my freaking skull. Think I'm gonna walk up river and see if anyone might want to go caching... I may even stop off at the rice patties and (heh) buy some BEER. Who's in with 'forgive and forget' rather than watching your life go by in the reflection of a river?

Maybe exactly what we need is to discuss this merge idea NOW rather than later. I would rather fail at it than not try.

?????

brdad
07-22-2006, 06:55 AM
I know it may be difficult, but do cache hiders have the right to limit access in listings to places where the landowners (public) have placed no restrictions? I personally do not think cache hiders have that perogative unless the landowner or land manager has requested it. I do not believe any such posted restrictions were in place for any of the cache locations we did.

I think you have to accept what is in the description. Perhaps there are restrictions, and any signs are missing, or hidden by vegetation. I know I have missed signs at times. Perhaps they just want to protect the area they are showing you, or they know the area might not be safe at night. Some people tell you to take a certian trail and not to bushwhack, yet there are no signs to tell you to stay on the markled trail. Many cache descriptions tell you to do things a certian way. While it often cannot be enforced, I think the safest way to go to protect caching in Maine, is to follow these rules even if we think they are not made by the landowner. Do the 101 Dalamation distibutors have the right to limit placement to Southern Maine, when gc.com allows caches all over the world? I say, the cacher owner gets to make the rules as long as they are within gc.com standards, or whatever caching site they are listed on.


The cache hider in this instance and myself have talked this through and I think he understands were I am coming from, at least it appears to be that from our emails and I do understand where he is coming from.

As for the incessant ranting on the websight by a handfull about the "unnamed" cachers, I can only suggest that it is not doing anyone any good to keep harping on the past. I have moved on and have believe it or not changed some of my positions on some of the issues.

I do not think the real issue is what happened so much as it is that we came up and found all those caches. Maybe I am wrong, but that is what it looks like to me.

Do I expect you or anyone else to change your mind? Not really, but there are two or more sides to every story. The truth usually is somewhere in the midst, sometimes you have to look for it.

I didn't even know the whole story other than someone went where they shouldn't have. I didn't even care who. It's just unfortunate that it happened.

This is one reason I get uneasy whenever these types of things pop up. I didn't care to have anything to do with the FTF a Thon. Everyone is in a hurry, and intuition and common sense get thrown aside, and things like this happen. Even with the Delorme Challenge, I knew people would be taking caches with them to hide in grids in case no one else did. Fortunately, that worked out ok, all caches placed appear to be appropriate hides. And while we are on the subject, the same goes with the Dalamation series. Despite the cache description asking them to be original in their hides, a percentange of them are nothing of the sort, which lowers people's opinion of the entire series. And I also fear for the upcoming Geo Rally, which invites people once again to race all over the state, doing whatever they can to grab numbers in a hurry.

Now, these things happen with everyday caching as well. But, landowners and/or cache owners who see large numbers of cachers jumping onto their property in a short amount of time are apt to have shorter tempers, and cachers who are in a hurry to be #1 will have shorter tempers as well.




There is an ancient saying by the Chinese people:

"If you wait by the side of the river long enough, eventually you will see the bodies of your enemies floating by..."

Well, I waited at the side of the river for about a day and a half and now I'm COMPLETELY BORED out of my freaking skull. Think I'm gonna walk up river and see if anyone might want to go caching... I may even stop off at the rice patties and (heh) buy some BEER. Who's in with 'forgive and forget' rather than watching your life go by in the reflection of a river?

Maybe exactly what we need is to discuss this merge idea NOW rather than later. I would rather fail at it than not try.

?????

All I get by this quote is you have been waiting by the river for geocachingmaine.org to float downstream, dead?

It would be nice to forget the past, but any actions we make in our lives we have to live by, or prove we have changed.

How can we even consider any kind of merge when things were said and done which were in bad taste, both as individuals and as the MGA? What has or will be done to regain trust? Perhaps I will post my original questions to the MGA site to see if they get answered honestly...

ribnag
07-22-2006, 05:42 PM
I don't know the history of this argument, but it appears, across several topics, to very much affect people's feelings.

I have a point I'd like to make, which you may of course all ignore, but I hope perhaps an unbiased outsider can help:

If the politics of the organizations bother you that much - Just use them as a resource to get coordinates and don't participate in the forums. I personally did that for years just because I generally don't read forums on hobbist sites except to search for specific information I may need.

Most people here seem basically nice. We all have slightly different ideas and motivations regarding Caching, but essentially we all do the same thing. It seems pointless to argue over the finer points of the rules - Doing so means you've already decided one way or the other, and only want to justify your stance - Not a problem! Do what makes you happy, and doesn't ruin the hobby for others.

For example, I've mentioned here before that I don't agree fully with the can't-count-it-if-you-don't-log-in rule. That means some people might choose not to accept a few percent of my finds. But y'know - I don't cache to make a number go up, I do it for the joy of finding new places to hike.

If you let the rules-laywers or a few ultra-competitive individuals ruin your fun, you've missed the point entirely.

Trezurs*-R-*Fun
07-22-2006, 06:18 PM
I don't know the history of this argument, but it appears, across several topics, to very much affect people's feelings.

I have a point I'd like to make, which you may of course all ignore, but I hope perhaps an unbiased outsider can help:

If the politics of the organizations bother you that much - Just use them as a resource to get coordinates and don't participate in the forums. I personally did that for years just because I generally don't read forums on hobbist sites except to search for specific information I may need.

Most people here seem basically nice. We all have slightly different ideas and motivations regarding Caching, but essentially we all do the same thing. It seems pointless to argue over the finer points of the rules - Doing so means you've already decided one way or the other, and only want to justify your stance - Not a problem! Do what makes you happy, and doesn't ruin the hobby for others.

For example, I've mentioned here before that I don't agree fully with the can't-count-it-if-you-don't-log-in rule. That means some people might choose not to accept a few percent of my finds. But y'know - I don't cache to make a number go up, I do it for the joy of finding new places to hike.

If you let the rules-laywers or a few ultra-competitive individuals ruin your fun, you've missed the point entirely.

All valid points except for a couple of things. If you don't talk them out and understand one another then it just stews and gets worse. These post are an attempt to work through questions and concerns and as long as everybody does it civilly then there is nothing wrong with it. If someone doesn't want to take part in the thread or has nothing to offer then that is their perogative. Letting people work out their differences is what is called diplomacy. Asking questions and trying to understand will lead to stronger friendships and respect in the end. The irony though is that we may never agree but we can say we tried and will at least have heard both sides.

In the euphoric world we would all share the same opinions, Oreos would grow on tree and taxes wouldn't be a word. In the realistic world, we all have different ideas but must find ways to accept one another. Sometimes it happens sometimes it doesn't.

Kacky
07-22-2006, 07:15 PM
In the euphoric world we would all share the same opinions, Oreos would grow on tree and taxes wouldn't be a word. In the realistic world, we all have different ideas but must find ways to accept one another. Sometimes it happens sometimes it doesn't.
I wouldn't want everyone to have the same opinions as me, because sometimes I'm smart but other times I am really DUMB :rolleyes:

WhereRWe?
07-23-2006, 07:47 AM
I wouldn't want everyone to have the same opinions as me, because sometimes I'm smart but other times I am really DUMB :rolleyes:

Sheesh! I used to be REALLY. REALLY smart. Then about my second birthday something happened... ;) ;)

brdad
07-23-2006, 07:56 AM
Sheesh! I used to be REALLY. REALLY smart. Then about my second birthday something happened... ;) ;)
Perhaps too many trips to the Oreo tree? :D

we3beans
07-24-2006, 11:24 AM
Gob-ler,
I guess I wasn't clear. I don't have an issue with people who make honest mistakes and then recify them. I don't even have an issue with the FTF a thon. I choose not to participate in FTF because I simply don't get up that early in the morning. I don't even have an issue with you. I like your caches and think they are pretty inventive.

My issue is wholly separate from the one that Smitty & Co has. I have never heard the whole story about what Smitty & Co is upset with. However, I belive that between the incident I'm aware of and the things Smitty and a few others have brought up to me, that there is a pattern of behavior that I feel others should be aware of.

I'm no drama queen, I have enough real problems that this is pretty unimportant in my life. On the other hand, if I see something I don't agree with I'm going to speak up. I had no interest in continuing this conversation until someone thought Smitty was overreacting and was complaining about a one time incident, much like you just said. I again have no interest in continuing the conversation. What is done is done, if I felt the need to 'fix' my concern I would, but I don't because I don't really care. If you'd like to pm me, feel free, my problem is not with you.

Haffy
07-24-2006, 01:11 PM
We3beans,, maybe it would be a good idea to post this on the MGA's site where Gob-ler is sure to read it. Here is the link: http://www.mainegeocachingassociation.com/forums

attroll
07-24-2006, 01:32 PM
Lets not do this with any intentions of starting a feud between the web sites please. We do not need to do this. We need to be adults.

Gob-ler
07-24-2006, 04:04 PM
There is no need to post it anywhere else. I check in here on a regular basis.

I will PM W3Bs and she and I will deal with whatever we have to in that way.

Thanks for the response.

Gob-ler
07-24-2006, 06:02 PM
Thanks Smitty for your note. I am glad this is now way behind us.

Haffy
07-24-2006, 06:23 PM
Do I see a group hug in the works here? :D

attroll
07-24-2006, 10:46 PM
Who's in with 'forgive and forget' rather than watching your life go by in the reflection of a river?

Maybe exactly what we need is to discuss this merge idea NOW rather than later. I would rather fail at it than not try.

?????
It sounds like a good idea to me.

dí76
07-25-2006, 07:21 AM
It sounds like a good idea to me.

Maybe it wouldnt hurt to start small and make little steps by showing each group that we can get along by putting a link to each others website.:)

firefighterjake
07-25-2006, 08:19 AM
Maybe it wouldnt hurt to start small and make little steps by showing each group that we can get along by putting a link to each others website.:)

Excellent idea.

Trezurs*-R-*Fun
07-25-2006, 09:02 AM
Maybe it wouldnt hurt to start small and make little steps by showing each group that we can get along by putting a link to each others website.:)

In my attempt to work with GeoMaine and do just what you mentioned, it resulted in me basically being told that I needed to make all the the effort and conform to their ideas. The ultimatum was that if I wasn't seen as beneficial to the MGA I would not be allowed to be an active part of it.

The reason I mention this is 1). GeoMaine accused me, without actually using these words, of being a spy/plant of the GCM.org forums and that 2.) my participation would be evaluated based on how I was "beneficial" to the MGA and if I was not beneficial I could not be part of the "due process" 3.) This is a quote right out of an email he sent me, "Had you come in and said "Here's my $15 bucks! Now. What can I do to help?" Would have spoken VOLUMES about you..." This to me is offensive, I joined to promote geocaching not the MGA. I would have expected, "Thanks for joining, lets us make geocaching great for the State of Maine!!!!"

I'm willing to forward my email conversation to everyone who would like to see how GeoMaine has "extended the Olive Branch."

The moral to my post is "BEWARE OF THE WOLF IN SHEEPS CLOTHING!!!!!"

I will say that both Hoamdezinah and Gob-ler have both stayed in contact with me but GeoMaine blocked me from entering their site. I did ask to be removed from the roster because of that email conversation as it was truly enlightening to GeoMaine's ideas and treatment of its members. I don't believe Hoamdezinah or Gob-ler share GeoMaine's attitude but they both conceded that GeoMaine IS a founding father and therefore a MAJOR part of the MGA!

I would love to see the sites "get along" and I think there is a possibility but both sides have to move toward that end. I don't think that is possible though with one individual that is an "authorative" figure with the MGA..

dí76
07-25-2006, 10:34 AM
In my attempt to work with GeoMaine and do just what you mentioned, it resulted in me basically being told that I needed to make all the the effort and conform to their ideas. The ultimatum was that if I wasn't seen as beneficial to the MGA I would not be allowed to be an active part of it.

The reason I mention this is 1). GeoMaine accused me, without actually using these words, of being a spy/plant of the GCM.org forums and that 2.) my participation would be evaluated based on how I was "beneficial" to the MGA and if I was not beneficial I could not be part of the "due process" 3.) This is a quote right out of an email he sent me, "Had you come in and said "Here's my $15 bucks! Now. What can I do to help?" Would have spoken VOLUMES about you..." This to me is offensive, I joined to promote geocaching not the MGA. I would have expected, "Thanks for joining, lets us make geocaching great for the State of Maine!!!!"

I'm willing to forward my email conversation to everyone who would like to see how GeoMaine has "extended the Olive Branch."

The moral to my post is "BEWARE OF THE WOLF IN SHEEPS CLOTHING!!!!!"

I will say that both Hoamdezinah and Gob-ler have both stayed in contact with me but GeoMaine blocked me from entering their site. I did ask to be removed from the roster because of that email conversation as it was truly enlightening to GeoMaine's ideas and treatment of its members. I don't believe Hoamdezinah or Gob-ler share GeoMaine's attitude but they both conceded that GeoMaine IS a founding father and therefore a MAJOR part of the MGA!

I would love to see the sites "get along" and I think there is a possibility but both sides have to move toward that end. I don't think that is possible though with one individual that is an "authorative" figure with the MGA..


While I have had my share of conflicts with various members here and there, this is about caching.

While I do believe that their are some personality conflicts between various members I would like to think that it would be ok to use each website as a valuable resource. I mean that is what they are here for I think. Or would like to think:(

Each site has very cool things to offer. Examples, gcmaine has the post already started that mga will adventually build to as they gain time. MGA has a very cool place to go check out where other cachers stand in the top 50. GCmaine has many members that can contribute to conversation where mga will have to be around a bit to get the varyious opinions by having lots of members but they could still use this site to check on previous discussions about topics of interest. The list goes on.

Rick maybe it is time that we made a move and just did something. Such as the link or even a suggestion on the page that another maine website exist.

Remember, we may have a problem with someone but I bet it is safe to say that both websites have great info to offer.

Trezurs*-R-*Fun
07-25-2006, 11:14 AM
While I have had my share of conflicts with various members here and there, this is about caching.

While I do believe that their are some personality conflicts between various members I would like to think that it would be ok to use each website as a valuable resource. I mean that is what they are here for I think. Or would like to think:(

Each site has very cool things to offer. Examples, gcmaine has the post already started that mga will adventually build to as they gain time. MGA has a very cool place to go check out where other cachers stand in the top 50. GCmaine has many members that can contribute to conversation where mga will have to be around a bit to get the varyious opinions by having lots of members but they could still use this site to check on previous discussions about topics of interest. The list goes on.

Rick maybe it is time that we made a move and just did something. Such as the link or even a suggestion on the page that another maine website exist.

Remember, we may have a problem with someone but I bet it is safe to say that both websites have great info to offer.


Your absolutely right!! Unfortunately, through my niavete and idealism, I mailed my check to the MGA thinking the same things and within one week I was barred from the site and my membership dues returned because I asked the question, "How is the steering committee chosen and the term and terms of that office." I never got the question answered except to be told that unless I "proved" myself, I did not have to worry about ever getting on the steering committee. This organization is about its self, not about geocaching.

I agree that no matter the organization, it should be about Geocaching for everyone and not about the individuals within the organziation. The MGA seems to have lost sight of that, or I should qualify and say that GeoMaine appears to have lost sight of that and unfortunately but understandable, he is a major part of the MGA...


These forums still represent the

we3beans
07-25-2006, 11:14 AM
Just to update everyone, I've emailed with Gob-ler and I belive we're fine. Like I said, my problem is not with him or his caches...
I do think sometimes we are judged by the company we keep, and I didn't clarify that and I should have.

What do you call a baby turkey?
A goblet!

Cache Maine
07-25-2006, 11:19 AM
cool place to go check out where other cachers stand in the top 50.

Here's a link to a very cool place....Top 57 (http://grand_high_pobah.home.comcast.net/Maine1.html)

Gob-ler
07-25-2006, 12:08 PM
Thanks We3beans for the nice note. I have sent you one back. We are OK!

A baby turkey is a Poult.

Gob-ler
07-25-2006, 12:09 PM
Thats a nice link Cameooooo. Northwoods Explorer is not on that list, I don't think he has set his state. He would be right in front of me with his 1000 or so finds.

we3beans
07-25-2006, 02:07 PM
Thanks We3beans for the nice note. I have sent you one back. We are OK!

A baby turkey is a Poult.

I'm quite sure you are right, this is mespeak...kinda like my forky's in the road and baby cows are minimoos....and other oddities...:D