View Full Version : A monster is eating my mountain



vicbiker
12-31-2006, 10:59 PM
Today was one of those days that I've known for a long time was coming.But one that I've tried to block out of reality.Today when I hiked up my trail on Russel mt.,just pass my "On a Mountain Top"cache,a monster was waiting there for me.

This particular monster has a long neck and a head with huge teeth, its main diet is trees.I'm talking about a monster called a "Fella Buncher",a mechanical tree harvester. Some of the trail beyond the cache is already gone and I'm afraid that the rest of it is in danger.

The mountain was bought a few years ago by E.J.Carrier a logging company from Jackman Me.He has been cutting around the bottom of the mountain ever since.I've been hoping beyond hope that he wouldn't cut the top.Today that hope came to an end. Happy _____ New Year!!!!

WhereRWe?
01-01-2007, 06:08 PM
The Carrier family is well known in central Maine. They're all businessmen, but I haven't really heard anything bad about the family.

One of the Carrier brothers was killed in a tragic accident in Skowhegan a year or so ago (Richard???), and Denis Carrier is the owner of Kennebec Lumber - with a sawmill in Solon - and they produce some FANTASTIC hardwood flooring (which we put in 4 rooms in our house this last year).

One thing about the woods in Maine: they'll grow back! ;) ;)

vicbiker
01-02-2007, 09:19 AM
Bruce; I totally agree with you about the Carrier family.Their wood cutting practices are no worst then anybody else's and in some instances much better.My beef is not with anyone in particular,but instead its with logging practices in general.

I've been fortunate enough to have grown up in the northern Me. woods.I'm old enough to remember four foot pulp piled for miles on great northern land,to have seen it run down the Penobscot river from Rip dam.I went to work in the woods as a young man and eventually my brother and I had our own buisness.I've cut wood with crawler tractors and I've cut wood with skidders.I've watch the evolution of the mechanical harvesters.

Todays wood cutting pratices in my humble opion are more about greed then wood management.The cutting of three hundred year old,twenty five foot tall spruce off the top of Maine mountains is not good forestry practices.

I apologize for getting on my high horse about this issue,but I feel that if we don't soon we'll have none of those wonderful places we enjoy geocaching in.Take a ride to N.H. some day and look at the top of their mts.What you'll see are house's and condominiums looking back at you where once was pristine forest.

WhereRWe?
01-02-2007, 12:59 PM
I apologize for getting on my high horse about this issue,but I feel that if we don't soon we'll have none of those wonderful places we enjoy geocaching in.
.

Sheesh! They're going to take down the parking-lot lamps, guard rails and stop signs???



Take a ride to N.H. some day and look at the top of their mts.What you'll see are house's and condominiums looking back at you where once was pristine forest.

Yeah! Why didn't those people stay in the city, anyway??? :p :p

WhereRWe?
01-02-2007, 01:07 PM
I've been fortunate enough to have grown up in the northern Me. woods.I'm old enough to remember four foot pulp piled for miles on great northern land,to have seen it run down the Penobscot river from Rip dam.I went to work in the woods as a young man and eventually my brother and I had our own buisness.I've cut wood with crawler tractors and I've cut wood with skidders.I've watch the evolution of the mechanical harvesters.


My first 1 1/2 years in college were at a forestry school. Our forestry lab taught us to cut trees with crosscut saws, buck them with buck saws, and stump pile the wood - ready for the horses. Never saw a chain saw and didn't know what a skidder was! LOL!

In 1977 - the last year they ran pulp in the Kennebec - my brother ran one of the boats towing rafts of pulp across Wyman lake.

Sheesh! For that matter, try and find a mill that will buy 4-foot pulp these days! You can't even cut and sell your own wood these days unless you're a "professional forester".

Just wait - someone will invent newsprint and toilet paper made from recycled plastic and that will be the end of the pulp mills! LOL!

Sudonim
01-02-2007, 05:35 PM
Just wait - someone will invent newsprint and toilet paper made from recycled plastic and that will be the end of the pulp mills! LOL!


...not to mention all those people going paperless caching!!!:D
Keep your Palm at home, save a mill:p

Trezurs*-R-*Fun
01-02-2007, 06:33 PM
While I hate to see the "wilderness" shrink I also have observed that those who voice the most concern haven't accepted the fact that they are part of the problem too. It's not "everyone else" causing the problem its everyone, including the person vocalizing their concern. The problem isn't forestry practices, its the demand put on our natural resources. As demand for those resources go up I see the efficiency increasing too. People actually buy a TV Guide, --personally I find that to be one of todays oxymorons--, lets face it, when 20 million people buy these things that puts a lot of pressure on the trees.

This year as my children opened gifts and I was asked to remove them from the packaging, I was appalled to see the amount of material used to hold a Weeble farm in its packaging. There was more packing material than toy. This was true for almost all the individual toys that the girls received.

To readdress wood cutting and todays practices, I would like to say that the efficiency of the harvesting is only a reflection of the demand of the general populace. More people, more houses and more butts to wipe equals lots of wood and paper. Lets face it, if we're going to talk about greed lets start the list with medical doctors, lawyers and the oil companies. Philantropy shouldn't be measured by how thick your wallet is, rather how thin.

I think that there are lots of great, proactive organizations out there that are buying property to preserve it and I find that admirable and try to contribute if I can. I do get a little concerned when people start complaining about what others are doing with there own personal property thinking that they have the right to tell them what they can and can't do with it. I feel that if I don't want a house to be built across the street from me then I should buy the property and pay the taxes on it. I don't feel that I have the right to tell the person who does buy it that they can't build a house on it.

I see the issue evolving into a personal property issue and not a forestry issue at all.

WhereRWe?
01-03-2007, 09:43 AM
This year as my children opened gifts and I was asked to remove them from the packaging, I was appalled to see the amount of material used to hold a Weeble farm in its packaging. There was more packing material than toy. This was true for almost all the individual toys that the girls received.



Sheesh! How many times have I cut myself trying to get that INDESTRUCTIBLE plastic off of something! LOL!

RULOST2? - who works at WalMart - says that it's amazing how many shoplifters manage to get through that HEAVY plastic to steal something. They are CONSTANTLY finding open (empty) packaging throughout the store.

I love a great stand of trees as much as anyone, but I'd rather see things packaged in wood or paper than plastic.

Beach Comber
01-03-2007, 03:48 PM
I shudder at the thought of the amount of plastic we put into the environment. Last night I was eating yogurt - organic yogurt. I put that part in only because in this situation and in light of this thread what I noticed made me shrug my shoulders. The container that was used was not recyclable - ugh - one of those "fantastic" plastic products. So here we have a product that has been made using a special growing/production process to ensure it is kept organic and chemical free while the container that is used is made by a plant that may (or may not!) take appropriate measure to ensure that what it spews into the air during the manufacturing process is clean and won't cause harm to things like the food we eat. Rather ironic, I thought.

WhereRWe?
01-03-2007, 04:00 PM
Last night I was eating yogurt - organic yogurt. I put that part in only because in this situation and in light of this thread what I noticed made me shrug my shoulders. The container that was used was not recyclable - ugh - one of those "fantastic" plastic products.

Hmmm...

I just checked the yogurt in our fridge (NOT organic), and see that it's in polystyrene containers. Since I'm a big advocate of recycling, I checked to see what I could find about recycling polystyrene.

Here's what I found. (http://www.polystyrene.org/environment/econ.html) I thought it was interesting. :D :D

Haffy
01-03-2007, 06:07 PM
I shudder at the thought of the amount of plastic we put into the environment. Last night I was eating yogurt - organic yogurt. I put that part in only because in this situation and in light of this thread what I noticed made me shrug my shoulders. The container that was used was not recyclable - ugh - one of those "fantastic" plastic products. So here we have a product that has been made using a special growing/production process to ensure it is kept organic and chemical free while the container that is used is made by a plant that may (or may not!) take appropriate measure to ensure that what it spews into the air during the manufacturing process is clean and won't cause harm to things like the food we eat. Rather ironic, I thought.

Just took a chance that this was the company that you were talking about and here is what they have to say about their packaging and recycling efforts. Correct me if I am wrong about the company that made your yogurt. http://www.stonyfield.com/EarthActions/Environmental%20Practices/EnvironmentalPackaging.cfm

Beach Comber
01-03-2007, 06:59 PM
Well, thank you! I should have jumped off my high horse when I had that thought run through my head last night and looked this up. This is great information and certainly makes me feel better about consuming their product (yes, you were correct about the company!). It will be great to see more and more companies move in this direction!! I think it will happen, but it will take time for sure. In the meantime, I think I will head downstairs and enjoy some awesome Stonyfield organic yogurt!

WhereRWe?
01-03-2007, 07:01 PM
Hmmm...

I just checked the yogurt in our fridge (NOT organic), and see that it's in polystyrene containers. Since I'm a big advocate of recycling, I checked to see what I could find about recycling polystyrene.

Here's what I found. (http://www.polystyrene.org/environment/econ.html) I thought it was interesting. :D :D

DISREGARD THIS POST!!! CONTAINS INCORRECT INFORMATION!

:o :o :o

(I read Haffy's post and realized that I'd misidentified the type of plastic).

Sheesh! (Senior moment...)

vicbiker
01-03-2007, 07:44 PM
:rolleyes:Living here in Abbot,next to the Plum Creek proposal and Roxanne Quimby's land holdings,you can only imagine the discussions we have at the coffee shop.Half the crew cuts wood and the other half are half ass enviromentalist.Myself I'm not educated enough to know who's right or wrong or if there even is a right or wrong.I tend to rely on people like Bernd Heinrich for their educated opinions.In his book the The Trees in my Forest he explains that the forest is a lot more then the trees that grow there.The ecology of the forest is greatly effected when its cut and that greatly effects us.

Property rights are a thing of the pass.Planning boards,emanate domain,lurc and all kinds of state and federal agencies have seen to that.We only think when we own property that we have rights.We do have the right to pay taxes on it.:rolleyes:

Haffy
01-03-2007, 07:58 PM
Glad you got this back on topic Vic. Sometimes we do pretty good at hijacking threads but I think it is not intentional unless of course it is Hiram......;)

brdad
01-03-2007, 08:15 PM
I'm not overly smart when it comes to forestry either. But growing up around Chick Hill, I have seen first hand a lot of cutting over the years. I remember one area a few thousand acres were clear cut and thinking it would never come back. But it has done amazingly well in a short time.

I also know they cut some off a hill out back a few years ago in the middle of winter. because of the snow, the logging yard was over a mile from the hill. By the time spring come, the area looked like a tornado had gone through it, with hundreds of unwanted trees mowed over as the skidders dragged their loads to the yard.

My family had 12 acres cut a few years ago, lots of decent size spruce. It turned out to be good timing as much of the timber was rotted inside. This happens a lot when trees grow close and thick and don't get light below. So, cutting can be a good thing.

My personal opinion is that the earth is quite resiliant. Much of Maine's forests were once farmland and grassland. But I think people should do what they can to promote regrowth when they can.

WhereRWe?
01-04-2007, 07:26 PM
My personal opinion is that the earth is quite resiliant. Much of Maine's forests were once farmland and grassland. But I think people should do what they can to promote regrowth when they can.

YES! I agree.

I hate to see a clear-cut, but economically (and you must consider that) it usually makes sense.

Now lets talk about illegal aliens coming to Maine to plant trees in those clearcuts! LOL! ;) ;)

vicbiker
01-05-2007, 07:18 AM
. [I remember one area a few thousand acres were clear cut and thinking it would never come back. But it has done amazingly well in a short time.]I've watched the same thing up here.Trees are like weeds in the garden the more you cut them the more they grow back.And like in the garden its the pig weed that grows back,not the carrots.Also the ruts from grapple skidders will be there long after the trees grow back.Damage to the land is the real culprit.

brdad
01-05-2007, 07:44 AM
I've watched the same thing up here.Trees are like weeds in the garden the more you cut them the more they grow back.And like in the garden its the pig weed that grows back,not the carrots.Also the ruts from grapple skidders will be there long after the trees grow back.Damage to the land is the real culprit.

I hate carrots! :p

I hate trying to walk or ATV across skidder ruts, and it may not look as pretty as rolling fields, but when it comes to the actual soil, does it really harm anything? It seems it could loosen up the soil much like tilling a garden, and the holes may provide shelter for smaller animals.

I understand if you're our hiking in nature that you don't like to see any more presense of big machinery than possible, neither do I. But that doesn't mean the earth will not continue to flourish, and may even be better for it in the long run.

There's a chance if modern day hamans never inhabited Maine that there could have been a forest fire that destroyed more forest and kill more wildlife than we would ever remove.

number seven
01-05-2007, 08:52 AM
Russell mountain has been a part of my life for over sixty years,and I've seen allot of changes.While it might be sad to changes happening it gives me a chance to do something different. Carrier is doing a good job{my opinion}and the roads that they have made are excellent for skiing[if we ever get snow].I remember standing on the ledges up there with my dad and uncle and looking at Squaw mt. with out tree's in the way.The tree's will grow back and the cycle will start all over again.I too have worked in the woods and I've been back to look at the places that I was involved with,and I have to say I'm not ashamed of any place that we cut.It all comes down to money,but isn't that what we need to feed the family-Number Seven

Trezurs*-R-*Fun
01-05-2007, 08:53 AM
. [I remember one area a few thousand acres were clear cut and thinking it would never come back. But it has done amazingly well in a short time.]I've watched the same thing up here.Trees are like weeds in the garden the more you cut them the more they grow back.And like in the garden its the pig weed that grows back,not the carrots.Also the ruts from grapple skidders will be there long after the trees grow back.Damage to the land is the real culprit.

What could be more destructive to the land than clearing a lot, building a house, placing utility poles that bring the house electricity and telephone service, a driveway and a lawn of non-indiginous species of grasses. This land is "removed" from the environment for a longer period of time than clearcutting. For one house that houses maybe one family how many species of animals and plants are displaced?

I agree that we, as responsible stewarts of the earth, should question how our natural resources are used and harvested but we have to realize that the biggest problem is way too many people. Acadia National Park gets how many visitors each year? How many people apply to camp in Baxter State Park? How much paper does the NewYork Times use on a daily basis? How much petroleum is burned everyday JUST to keep all the computers in the world going for a 24 hour period? Then comes the hard question, how do we keep it so everyone can enjoy it?

I think its not fair to judge until one honestly and fairly accesses how they live.

firefighterjake
01-05-2007, 09:29 AM
While my family has long practiced selective cutting on our property (only 300 acres or so), I realize that selective cutting is usually not that economical for the large wood harvesting companies.

I personally don't care for clear cutting, but I would rather have public access to these lands from the pulp, paper and lumber corporations than to have certain eco-nuts buy up vast tracts of land and either turn them into exclusive nature preserves and ban the hunters, trappers, snowmobilers, ATVers, etc. who have used these lands for decades . . . or to have them bought up by developers and have summer homes for the well-to-do . . . and once again traditional users of these lands are banned. Only my two cents worth.

vicbiker
01-05-2007, 06:50 PM
This thread has garnished a variety of opinions,which is what it should do.I think we are all partially right and partially wrong.Eviromental issues are so much in tune with a persons own interest.My own opions have changed about every ten years,mellowing each time.I was the guy who would have fought you tooth and nail a few years ago if you said anything negative about logging,hunting or trapping.

You are absolutely right when talking about development being more harmful then logging.Just think how much of the eco system was destoyed to build the interstate.Or how much is detroyed to put in a new mall.I read where Atlanta Georgia has so much asphalt that it causes its own weather.Cities are now required to put in green zones for every so many acres of hot top.

Eco-nuts is such a harsh word for someone who is doing what they believe to be for the good of everyone.No one is saying we can't go there just go quitely.

Hiram357
01-05-2007, 08:47 PM
. [I remember one area a few thousand acres were clear cut and thinking it would never come back. But it has done amazingly well in a short time.]I've watched the same thing up here.Trees are like weeds in the garden the more you cut them the more they grow back.And like in the garden its the pig weed that grows back,not the carrots.Also the ruts from grapple skidders will be there long after the trees grow back.Damage to the land is the real culprit.


Yeah, I know, it'll grow back, heard that a hundred times... but do you ever notice the difference when you're walking through a young forest and an old forest? Even the wildlife knows the difference.:(

brdad
01-05-2007, 09:55 PM
People who say nothing should be cut have either never done the Etna Bog cache or did it after they did cut a lot of it!

WhereRWe?
01-06-2007, 01:01 PM
Yeah, I know, it'll grow back, heard that a hundred times... but do you ever notice the difference when you're walking through a young forest and an old forest? Even the wildlife knows the difference.:(

Yeah - the deer and moose LOVE the new growth! (Biggest deer I ever saw got that way from eating raspberry tips in a clearcut, but lived in the dense older growth nearby..)

(And those of us who say "it'll grow back" are talking about decades, not years.
Yeah, it looks terrible for a LONG time, but it isn't "forever", like an asphalt parking lot. And wood is INFINITELY recyclable - unlike plastic...)

attroll
01-07-2007, 12:25 AM
This is also a sore subject with me and not just here in Maine. The logging practices are not very ethical in my opinion. When I was younger, I also remember logging runs down the Kennebec and other rivers here in Maine.

The problem with logging today is that they log thousands of acres of land and in my opinion do not plant regrowth trees like they should. Some companies do. The other down fall to this is that the trees that were planted for regrowth trees years ago when I was a kid are only 30 to 40 years old now. Trees that are 30 to 40 years old are not very big trees. In fact some of them are less then a foot in diameter. They are already cutting down these 30 to 40 year old trees in order to turn a profit. If you look around Maine now you will very rarely find trees that are 10 feet in diameter like we could years ago.

The paper companies have already started buying up land in South America because our resources here are dwindling. They are already cutting down the rain forest trees to turn a profit.

I don't have any problem with cutting down tress, but they are over cutting and cutting them down to fast. Trees help get ride of the carbon dioxide in the atmosphere. Just think about who much forest land and trees there were 50 years ago and what the atmosphere was like back then. Think about how the climate was 50 years ago compared to now.

Trezurs*-R-*Fun
01-07-2007, 09:08 AM
This is also a sore subject with me and not just here in Maine. The logging practices are not very ethical in my opinion. When I was younger, I also remember logging runs down the Kennebec and other rivers here in Maine.

The problem with logging today is that they log thousands of acres of land and in my opinion do not plant regrowth trees like they should. Some companies do. The other down fall to this is that the trees that were planted for regrowth trees years ago when I was a kid are only 30 to 40 years old now. Trees that are 30 to 40 years old are not very big trees. In fact some of them are less then a foot in diameter. They are already cutting down these 30 to 40 year old trees in order to turn a profit. If you look around Maine now you will very rarely find trees that are 10 feet in diameter like we could years ago.

The paper companies have already started buying up land in South America because our resources here are dwindling. They are already cutting down the rain forest trees to turn a profit.

I don't have any problem with cutting down tress, but they are over cutting and cutting them down to fast. Trees help get ride of the carbon dioxide in the atmosphere. Just think about who much forest land and trees there were 50 years ago and what the atmosphere was like back then. Think about how the climate was 50 years ago compared to now.


Rick, these are valid points but the fact remains, the paper/timber companies would not be cutting down trees if you and me and 8 billion other people didn't demand forest products to make homes and paper to serve a multitude of needs. The average home requires approximately 5000 mbf to construct. 1000 mbf is around 2 cord of wood, their is on average 20 cord of marketable timber per acre. Thats on average 2 houses to an acre. How many houses are there in Maine. Lets say 50,000, thats 25,000 acres cleared plus the lot that the house was built on. If 20,000 of these house burn 5 cord a year of firewood there is another 5000 acreas cleared. This is without even taken into consideration that the folks in Maine, 1.5 million of us, want to eat daily. How much land has been cleared for livestock or crops.

The atmosphere may be changing, the weather may be changing but the median lifespan is still increasing. We are now worried about cancer and in the "good old days" people worried about Polio. People are not dying of the same things today. People now die in car crashes which weren't around 150 years ago.

Why only ask what the weather was like 50 years ago, what was it like 20000 years ago, what caused the temperature to warm up then?? What is it that caused the ice age in the first place?? I know places in Maine where I can find fossils of a sea bottom up on top of a mountain? What caused the ocean levels to rise and fall. Alot of what we see today are not necessarily unnatural events. Change is a way of the world, continental drift, volcanoes, el nino, forest fires, earthquakes and so on so forth.

Having travelled to some places where the living conditionsare similar to conditions in the USA 100 - 150 years ago, I don't see the glamour. We are not missing anything, we haven't lost anything. Those people have their problems and they are very, very important to them. Getting enough food for their family or village is more important to them than preserving the rain forest. Medical help is non-existent and educational is minimal at best if they can get anything that approaches a formal education.

I don't want to see the forest or wilderness go away but I'm also torn as to what would be an acceptable solution. Minimizing the wood that can be cut will just increase the prices. It won't slow down the harvesting, and I'll use gas prices as an example. Prices went up but usage only went down minimally.

brdad
01-07-2007, 09:31 AM
The other down fall to this is that the trees that were planted for regrowth trees years ago when I was a kid are only 30 to 40 years old now. Trees that are 30 to 40 years old are not very big trees. In fact some of them are less then a foot in diameter. They are already cutting down these 30 to 40 year old trees in order to turn a profit. If you look around Maine now you will very rarely find trees that are 10 feet in diameter like we could years ago.

This is one part of the subject people haven't swayed me much on. Outside of us humans just wanting to see and know there are trees ten feet in diameter out there, does the loss of their existance hurt the earth any? I don't have the answer, as much as it impreses me to see two+ foot wide boards in older houses like the one I live in, modern day techniques and materials produce better boards, lumber, and other products than those 350 year old trees ever could. I can't think of any creatures that utiize trees that would go extinct if there were only one foot diamter trees around. Younger plants generally grow faster, and faster growing plants generally consume more carbon dioxide and produce more oxygen, so the larger trees help little in that aspect. So, outside of our own desire to have such big trees around, what benefit are they?



The paper companies have already started buying up land in South America because our resources here are dwindling. They are already cutting down the rain forest trees to turn a profit.

I agree they have destroyed a good chunk of the rain forests in past years without doing enough to sustain the forests. It does seem they have started regulating that somewhat, but it will be after we are long gone before they could recover.



I don't have any problem with cutting down tress, but they are over cutting and cutting them down to fast. Trees help get ride of the carbon dioxide in the atmosphere. Just think about who much forest land and trees there were 50 years ago and what the atmosphere was like back then. Think about how the climate was 50 years ago compared to now.

What if you go back 150 years ago? Around 1800, much of Maine was open fields, farmland, and new settlements. From what I am told, there are more forested acres in Maine now than there was then.

WhereRWe?
01-07-2007, 02:53 PM
I agree they have destroyed a good chunk of the rain forests in past years without doing enough to sustain the forests. It does seem they have started regulating that somewhat, but it will be after we are long gone before they could recover.



This month's National Geographic magazine has a good article about this.

vicbiker
01-08-2007, 10:20 AM
Number Seven and myself were all over the mountain sunday.A great day for a hike,nice weather and good visability.A lot of cutting has been done in the last week and I must admit over all it looks pretty good.We even went over to where they cut two years ago and I paid close attention to the ground conditions.There is a good ground cover started and not a lot of erosion problems.

There is a large crop of spruce cones this year and we observed a flock of crossbills taken advantage of them.No sign of the elusive golden crown kinglets that we been looking for.Probaly to warm to bring them down from Canada.Flushed only one partridge this trip where as in past trips we've been seeing a dozen or more.

A lot needs to be said about a group like ours that can discuss controversial issues in a responsible matter.Congrats to all.

I made the mistake yesterday of saying to Number Seven "we need to cut these trees that are blocking our view".I know my big mouth friend well enough to know if I don't tell you he will be posting a note on this thread.:D:DSo I'm just beating him to the punch.

firefighterjake
01-08-2007, 11:07 AM
. . .
A lot needs to be said about a group like ours that can discuss controversial issues in a responsible matter.Congrats to all.
. . .

Very true . . . now if others could just do the same. As I have said to many folks I have met in life . . . we can always agree to disagree with each other.

Beach Comber
01-08-2007, 11:47 AM
Number Seven and myself were all over the mountain sunday.A great day for a hike,nice weather and good visability.A lot of cutting has been done in the last week and I must admit over all it looks pretty good.We even went over to where they cut two years ago and I paid close attention to the ground conditions.There is a good ground cover started and not a lot of erosion problems.

There is a large crop of spruce cones this year and we observed a flock of crossbills taken advantage of them.No sign of the elusive golden crown kinglets that we been looking for.Probaly to warm to bring them down from Canada.Flushed only one partridge this trip where as in past trips we've been seeing a dozen or more.

A lot needs to be said about a group like ours that can discuss controversial issues in a responsible matter.Congrats to all.

I made the mistake yesterday of saying to Number Seven "we need to cut these trees that are blocking our view".I know my big mouth friend well enough to know if I don't tell you he will be posting a note on this thread.:D:DSo I'm just beating him to the punch.

It must have been good while you were out and about to see what you did. Hopefully it will ease some of the frustration for you. The weather was absolutely gorgeous! A great day to be at the beaches as well.

This has been a great discussion - very enlightening, educational, respectful!