View Full Version : nature conservancy



becket
12-03-2007, 05:41 PM
i just had two of my caches ("barred island...almost" and "crockett cove cache") disabled by geocaching.com due to a request from the nature conservancy. these caches are on island heritage trust land, which works with the nature conservancy.

needless to say, this was a surprise, as no one bothered to get in touch with me about it. i had just talked to the executive director of iht last week for permission to place a cache at scott's landing. he certainly did not mention it when he gave me permission!

do any of you know of other caches on nature conservancy land? i am going to call iht tomorrow but don't hold much hope out to get them un-disabled.

the iht director has mentioned in the past making me remove all my caches from their preserves, but after a much-publicized fiasco involving iht refusing to let the island nursing home use the causeway beach this summer for their yearly picnic, things had gotten better. the director asked me for coords to all my caches, then told me that they are fine and i could keep them.

heaven forbid that someone walk on their land. i just don't get it!

tat
12-03-2007, 05:57 PM
...do any of you know of other caches on nature conservancy land? i am going to call iht tomorrow but don't hold much hope out to get them un-disabled. ...

Yes! There were several caches on Mt. Agamenticus that were removed by the Nature Conservancy. I worked with the manager there and we came up with a plan to allow the caches there. If you want a referance, PM me.

My advise is to not panic, or be combative, make an appointment, find out what the manager feels is the problem and try to work with them.

If they have a web page, read that first. It may have some hints as to what goals they have for the land. In my opinion, Geocacing is more likely to enhance their goals than to go against them. Work with them to come up with a good plan to promote the mutual goals.

becket
12-03-2007, 06:26 PM
thanks, tom! i don't intend to be combative - i just don't see how walking across a beach to find a cache hidden in some rocks is harming anything! i always thought these parcels of land were for people to use and enjoy.

brdad
12-03-2007, 06:35 PM
One of the reasons these organizations give is that leaving caches in the woods is like leaving trash there. I was thinking about just that subject the other day while I waited in a parking lot at a local store watching a woman leave slips of paper (obviously some sort of advertising) under the wipers of all the unoccupied cars, and watching many people return to their cars only to toss the papers on the ground, or flipping their windshield wipers to free the paper to fly off. :confused:

tat
12-03-2007, 06:52 PM
thanks, tom! i don't intend to be combative

I know you wouldn't


... i just don't see how walking across a beach to find a cache hidden in some rocks is harming anything!

and yet it may be! The more I spend outdoors, the more incredible things I see that I had walked past many time. Lots of times we just walk right over it. Sometimes destroying what we went out to explore.



i always thought these parcels of land were for people to use and enjoy.

That's probably true, but you never know what the owner of that land asked unless you read the conditions of the trust.

WhereRWe?
12-03-2007, 07:19 PM
One of the reasons these organizations give is that leaving caches in the woods is like leaving trash there. I was thinking about just that subject the other day while I waited in a parking lot at a local store watching a woman leave slips of paper (obviously some sort of advertising) under the wipers of all the unoccupied cars, and watching many people return to their cars only to toss the papers on the ground, or flipping their windshield wipers to free the paper to fly off. :confused:

I think it would be a lot easier to convince these organizations that CITO is an important part of geocaching than to convince the public that the people who place these flyers will come back and pick up the trash... LOL! ;) ;)

hollora
12-03-2007, 08:11 PM
becket - I, for one, would have never known the hidden beauty of many places on your precious island had it not been for the geocaches you placed which took me to these areas. Unless you are a person who is really seeking out trails - you miss these places. The new scott's landing area is a perfect example. Many visitors to the island are likely to go whizzing by this beautiful place.

Most folks with families don't spend the time to research and find these areas unless they live nearby. Having a sport like geocaching introduces folks to areas they might never have found.

Tom is correct - often the goal is in sight and we just trudge on over stuff we shouldn't - unless we are careful and thinking conservation. To me - this is where our cache page descriptions are so very important. I think of the cache you put out where I saw the most incredible moss I have ever seen in my life. If anyone went trudging off the trail there - they would do serious damage. Hopefully, geocachers are careful.

Locations of your caches have very fond and beautiful memories for me - I wish you the best in negotiating a resolve. If there is anything we might do - I know you will ask.

dubord207
12-06-2007, 05:37 PM
I am also a hunter and these issues are the same that hunters are facing as well. The best advise aside from "asking first" as cachers clearly do, is to treat the land as you treat your piece of this earth. A lot of hunters have lost sight of difference between entitlment and permission and as a result hunting areas have grown dramatically smaller. Caching seems to be an environmentally friendly sport but I can see that we have to be respectful of the landowners or the privileges might be lost. One area of concern I have a new cacher is "parking." While many caches describe the location to park and the trail heads, some do not leading us onto private property. Several in the Boothbay Region Land Trust give no clue where to start. I parked in one obvious place I thought was public and was told "You geo people are making us crazy." So we must be vigilant and sensitive to the rights of others and especially those who allow us the use of their properties.

hollora
12-06-2007, 07:50 PM
I am also a hunter and these issues are the same that hunters are facing as well. The best advise aside from "asking first" as cachers clearly do, is to treat the land as you treat your piece of this earth. A lot of hunters have lost sight of difference between entitlment and permission and as a result hunting areas have grown dramatically smaller. Caching seems to be an environmentally friendly sport but I can see that we have to be respectful of the landowners or the privileges might be lost. One area of concern I have a new cacher is "parking." While many caches describe the location to park and the trail heads, some do not leading us onto private property. Several in the Boothbay Region Land Trust give no clue where to start. I parked in one obvious place I thought was public and was told "You geo people are making us crazy." So we must be vigilant and sensitive to the rights of others and especially those who allow us the use of their properties.

One caution - except in the case of an Earthcache, where to get the placement published you have to state who gave permission for the placement or who owns the land, do not assume permission has been obtained or the placing cacher has asked. I have discovered many caches where this is not the case! Especially if the location has been perceived by the placer to be "public" land.

There is no question in my mind (and yes, I have placed some) folks do not ask before placing guard rail caches or road sign caches. Rest area caches are another (although I do know some here in Maine permission has been obtained).

Parking locations for caches is an area where we could improve. That's for sure. This is an instance where a note on the cache page or in your log would be very appropriate when you become away of bothered folks nearby. Sort of a heads up to other cachers and also maybe the owner would revise their listing.

There are times, in researching before I went (which I do often), I felt the placing cacher was testing the searching cacher to find a way to the cache. Although this may be ok, it does place land owners in a position where they may have intruders. The words "making us crazy" are very strong. I would worry this area may have formal complaints in the future.

In the case of becket's caches, both are in areas with good parking, kiosks, maps, sign in sheets and nice trails. It will be interesting what precipitated this decision.

Lastly, I visited a cache in the Wiscasset area this year. Upon leaving the trail, I encountered a very uncomfortable situation in the posted parking where I had left my car. The area was somewhat remote. When I went in I was the only car. Coming out the trail - I was sorry I was caching alone but put on my Self Defense mode/attitude/demeanor, went right to the car and left the area. Talking with another cacher - he also encountered a similar situation with what sounded like the same folks earlier in the year.

Sharing in the community we can improve. I, too, was a hunter and agree - it is happening with all public access (snowmobiles, snowshoeing, cross country sking, hiking, ATVs, hunters, fishermen, geocaching - you name it). We work together or loose it.

Welcome aboard!

tat
12-06-2007, 08:01 PM
..."asking first" as cachers clearly do...

The current rules state: "By submitting a cache listing, you assure us that you have adequate permission to hide your cache in the selected location."

The permission can be a written or oral (asking somebody there who looks official) or the hider simply read all the rules and there were no rules against it. It's often very hard to find out who has authority.


...I parked in one obvious place I thought was public and was told "You geo people are making us crazy." ...

When this happens, it's a good idea to post a warning in your log or email the reviewer.

dubord207
12-06-2007, 09:57 PM
Thanks for all the responses. This group seems not only well organized but completely commited to making sure land owners' rights are not infringed. Some very thoughtful responses here, for sure. Thanks for the advise!

d’76
12-06-2007, 11:03 PM
Thanks for all the responses. This group seems not only well organized but completely commited to making sure land owners' rights are not infringed. Some very thoughtful responses here, for sure. Thanks for the advise!

We are commited to something ok. I think the concensus would be insanity. :D

hollora
12-21-2007, 04:46 PM
To revive this discussion - where my comments have to do with some recent posts on GC.com, I am posting this here. GPSFun posted some thoughtful facts about The Nature Conservancy (TNC) recent requests regarding caches. My observation is just - an observation and therefore probably better placed in this thread.

TNC appears to have a representative who travels very quickly and is already visiting caches in some areas of our fair State. Today, a cacher on GC.com who goes by dj_grenier logged over 55 caches with a smilie and today's date.

The gentleman signed on to the GC.com site 11/5/07 and joined this site shortly thereafter. His credentials on the GC.com site sound very good.

I am just wondering about all these logs as founds with the smilies for today and only a date on the log. One of these caches has only been out a few days. Did he really visit them all, sign the in-cache log, and were all the visits really today. Why nothing in the log other than the date?

His "Visit Homepage" link takes you to The Nature Conservency website.

We participate in a very public sport. Seldom, if ever, since I found my first cache in 1/2006 have I ever wondered, quite like this, what is going on?:confused: - except maybe the Fitz Cache.:eek:

I can say for sure......if he had visited any of my caches, I would checking the log. If the log in the cache had not been signed, I would be deleting the logs. Talk about playing fair and working together.......what is this all about?

To bad a Maine rep couldn't communicate openly and maybe even organize a Maine meeting or two or come to an event rather than get our attention by logging caches this way. JMHO (Just my humble opinion)!:)

Team Richards
12-21-2007, 05:01 PM
DJ logged four of our cahes as finds with todays date. Two of these are good hikes in the snow I checked on three of the four, The logs had not been signed in over a week and the cache areas had not been destirbed since before yesterdays snow..:confused:

Cache Happy
Dave

Mainiac1957
12-21-2007, 05:44 PM
At least three of the caches he "logged" were earthcaches. One way up in the county as well as downeast and the north maine woods. And all are todays date. He did also post he plans to attend Karen's event in January. I too saw the post and was quite curious.

Haffy
12-21-2007, 06:06 PM
Some people play this game the way they want to. I don't see anywhere where there are geocache police looking at all caches to make sure they are indeed found by others. Play the game the way you want to play it. Some like micros and some don't,who cares?

hollora
12-21-2007, 06:18 PM
Haffy - you are 100% correct. Whatever you are implying here - go for it. You post what you want - I will too.

I, for one, don't believe in logging caches you have not found - but if that's ok with you - works for me. My caches - I do delete logs if the folks have not verified they were there by signing the in cache logs. Your caches do as you want.

My post was to just let folks know. There is no way anyone could have done what this person posted in one day.

If TNC really cares, they would have people talking with people Face to Face not having someone do posts like this. But again, JMO and I am intitled to it! I knew when I did the post I would stand to be crucified - and you picked up the hammer - thank you - I was ready!

My husband is one of those silent check senders - the envelopes come every day - and he sends $. I can assure you, he has sent his last check to the TNC!

Again, JMO - I need a vacation and am taking one soon - health issues or not!

hollora
12-21-2007, 06:21 PM
He did also post he plans to attend Karen's event in January.

That would be an opportunity to an open and face to face discussion. Looking forward to it and hope he brings some maps of where the lands are which they cover.

After a call to their 1-800 number I found out - maps are not available, "they are very sorry".

Haffy
12-21-2007, 06:35 PM
Yes and I think before anyone goes blasting the person ,maybe he got the caches before at some time and now is just getting a chance to log them,it happens yah know.

Sudonim
12-21-2007, 06:48 PM
I'm thinking there may have been a software glitch somewhere. Search state of Maine by recently placed. His logs are every cache on the first three pages, most smiley faces, a few notes, all with the same log. Maybe GC stuttered one of his logs into a mess? Every single cache on pages 1-2 except for 1 cache that hasn't been found yet was logged. Nothing from page 4 on (in my limited searching). I'd say that GC might have had a problem with a multiple post???

Team Richards
12-21-2007, 06:55 PM
A software glitch is a possibility. The one cache that didn't have a log did have one. The cache owner chose to remove it because he is offering a nice FTF prise and the cache has yet to be found . I have let GPSFUN know about all of this and he is looking in to it. It may be after the holidays before we know for sure what happened.

gpsfun
12-21-2007, 07:07 PM
The individual does work for TNC and has been in communication with me and with folks at Groundspeak over the past couple of weeks. My conversations with Daniel have been completely reasonable.

I have a voice mail in to him to discuss this, but given the season he may not be back in the office right away.

I've been communicating with Team Richards on this today as well.

My wild guess at the moment is that he is marking cache that are not in TNC lands, but that is just speculation on my part. (Just wanted to let you know that I can speculate just like anyone else can.)

I will let everyone here know the result of my conversation with him; in the mean time, please give him the benefit of presuming good intentions.

Thanks.

-Brad

hollora
12-21-2007, 07:25 PM
The individual does work for TNC and has been in communication with me and with folks at Groundspeak over the past couple of weeks. My conversations with Daniel have been completely reasonable.

I will let everyone here know the result of my conversation with him; in the mean time, please give him the benefit of presuming good intentions.

Thanks.

-Brad

Guess my post has been taken as ill intended which was not the purpose. For that, I will apologize. Was just wondering what was happening.

Lois-Ann

gpsfun
12-21-2007, 07:37 PM
Guess my post has been taken as ill intended which was not the purpose. For that, I will apologize. Was just wondering what was happening.

Lois-Ann

I was not passing judgment on any particular post; if any one perceived it that way please accept my apologies. My intent was to let everyone know that I'm on it and will provide an update after I have talked to Daniel.

-Brad

hollora
12-21-2007, 07:41 PM
I was not passing judgment on any particular post; if any one perceived it that way please accept my apologies. My intent was to let everyone know that I'm on it and will provide an update after I have talked to Daniel.

-Brad

Brad - certainly not directed at you - you are a dear. Tis' the season to be kind. But I felt a nudge from others - that aside - Let's all have a Merry Christmas!

Lois-Ann

Team2hunt
12-21-2007, 08:39 PM
I'm thinking there may have been a software glitch somewhere. Search state of Maine by recently placed. His logs are every cache on the first three pages, most smiley faces, a few notes, all with the same log. Maybe GC stuttered one of his logs into a mess? Every single cache on pages 1-2 except for 1 cache that hasn't been found yet was logged. Nothing from page 4 on (in my limited searching). I'd say that GC might have had a problem with a multiple post???

WOOHOO!! I'll have 2500 caches by morning. :rolleyes:

becket
12-21-2007, 09:17 PM
i have had a few lenghty communications with dan and found him to be very reasonable and very pleasant.

today i archived the caches he asked me to earlier in the month - it just took me a while to be able to part with them, i guess.

dan has offered to work with me to place earthcaches at both crockett cove and barred island. he also helped me get my crockett cove cache container back from brunswick without my having to go there to get it.

i look forward to working with dan to have earthcaches in these two places so more people can enjoy the beauty of this island.

lexmano
12-25-2007, 10:11 AM
Hello all,

As Team Richards indicated, I have a $25 first to find bounty on a cache. Imagine my surprise when I found a log claiming a find with simply a date!
When I saw that he had claimed 54 finds that day in geographically diverse areas of the state, I was skeptical to say the least. I immediately e-mailed him for confirmation, but to date have received no response.

After another DNF on my cache confirmed no evidence of his visit (the snow had not been disturbed), I deleted his log. I have reserved judgment on the others, as I have not had a chance to check them. I have since heard that he did sign the log sheet on one of the caches in Yarmouth.

I choose to believe there is no malice in his actions, a misunderstanding as to accepted logging protocols perhaps. I also eagerly await any clarification that may be forthcoming.

Ed

Lexmano

EMSDanel
01-01-2008, 11:12 AM
Just to add one more..... grenier posted a "find" at one of my caches, at the Tunk Lake boat landing along with all the others on that day. I went there and he had NOT signed the log. He had not found it earlier and posted it that day. So I deleted his log entry and wrote to him telling him so, with no response back from him. As far as I know, he would have had to go to the cache page, click on "found it", and then written his comments. Now I'm seeing the possibility of a computer "glitch"...which is way beyond my simple knowledge base. Either way, glitch or not, he did NOT visit/find my cache, he did not sign the log, so his log entry stays deleted. I suspect all of the other 50+ "finds" he made that day will be the same. I find it odd (but telling) that nobody gets any replies from him. I look forward, with patience, to seeing how this all turns out and I have all the faith that gpsfun will get to the bottom of it and let us all know the results. The good news is: that was back in 2007... now just a memory. My current problem with geocaching is: I am soooooo irritated with all of this snow! I think I'm going into geowithdrawal......
Dan

EMSDanel
01-01-2008, 11:13 AM
Just to add one more..... grenier posted a "find" at one of my caches, at the Tunk Lake boat landing along with all the others on that day. I went there and he had NOT signed the log. He had not found it earlier and posted it that day. So I deleted his log entry and wrote to him telling him so, with no response back from him. As far as I know, he would have had to go to the cache page, click on "found it", and then written his comments. Now I'm seeing the possibility of a computer "glitch"...which is way beyond my simple knowledge base. Either way, glitch or not, he did NOT visit/find my cache, he did not sign the log, so his log entry stays deleted. I suspect all of the other 50+ "finds" he made that day will be the same. I find it odd (but telling) that nobody gets any replies from him. I look forward, with patience, to seeing how this all turns out and I have all the faith that gpsfun will get to the bottom of it and let us all know the results. The good news is: that was back in 2007... now just a memory. My current problem with geocaching is: I am soooooo irritated with all of this snow! I think I'm going into geowithdrawal......
Dan

Medawisla
01-01-2008, 11:20 AM
Just kidding, picking on ya cause it posted your response twice...:p

Geocaching withdrawl is a serious condition, one I'm ailing with too! I've been on and off sick for a while now and keep seeming to miss all the great snow days! I want to get out there!! :(

Sick or not, I'm looking forward to the cache event this weekend, hope you are too! Even with snow, we're sure to find caches, special ones for the event is the rumor I'm hearing. Plus camping for those hard core to get some real cabin relief!! :D

firefighterjake
01-02-2008, 09:45 AM
. . . My current problem with geocaching is: I am soooooo irritated with all of this snow! I think I'm going into geowithdrawal......
Dan

Oh I don't know . . . it's getting to the point now where I'm pretty happy with the snow . . . maybe if we got a bit more. . . . Of course this is the time of year when I switch over to my other hobby of snowmobiling.

Northwoods Explorer
01-02-2008, 04:35 PM
Just recieved a nice email; from the guy from TNC and it appears to me that he has answered all of my questions. He appears to have been experimenting with filters and had some issues. :eek: His letter to me was nice and showed that he had spent time finding out who I was and my caching style, in other words to me it appears that he is doing all that he can to clear up the issue. :) Please continue to show support for the TNC and its effort.

On a second note I think that it is great that we have this much snow already, but not very happy with the ski day (I mean snow days) we have been having recently. Looks like graduation on the fourth if it keeps up. :mad: Have been skiing 38 day this season already as of today. Looks like another great and long snow season. Enjoy it while you can because before you know it will be June and the snow will be gone, so sad.:):D:):D:)

Medawisla
01-02-2008, 07:42 PM
Thanks for the update! I'm sure that puts a lot of us at ease. We love helping out newcomers, but it's often frustrating when communication is lacking on either end. Glad we can all work things out! :cool:

Team Richards
01-02-2008, 09:48 PM
I also received a nice note from DJ that helped me understand what had happened. He apologized for any trouble and for the delay in his response to my email. In the end, there was no harm just a learning experience.

Now as for the snow… I’m good.

Maybe I shouldn’t have put out the “Let it snow” cache.:D:rolleyes:

EvilHomer
01-15-2008, 03:07 PM
The Nature "CONSPIRACY" Conservency is notorious for not sharing its holdings with anyone but birds and squirrels. So dont be suprised if they get apeplectic about geocaches.

EMSDanel
01-15-2008, 03:26 PM
Ok, sounds good to me....experimenting with filters...I do the same each morning when I make coffee. Just showing everyone how simple I really am. Now, perhaps, some of the questions have been answered. But for my own peace of mind....have all those "found it" entries been deleted knowing that the caches were never visited or "found"? :confused:

firefighterjake
01-15-2008, 04:48 PM
The Nature "CONSPIRACY" Conservency is notorious for not sharing its holdings with anyone but birds and squirrels. So dont be suprised if they get apeplectic about geocaches.

Hi ya Homer . . . welcome to geocachingmaine.org.

So tell us your thoughts about Roxanne Quimby . . . or Matt Polestein. . . .;):D . . . now where's that fishing rod of mine? ;):D

Haffy
01-15-2008, 05:53 PM
I've heard of Roxanne but Matt Polestein? Educate me would yah.

d’76
01-15-2008, 05:56 PM
I've heard of Roxanne but Matt Polestein? Educate me would yah.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s56yS99PPFw

gpsfun
01-15-2008, 06:14 PM
Ok, sounds good to me....experimenting with filters...I do the same each morning when I make coffee. Just showing everyone how simple I really am. Now, perhaps, some of the questions have been answered. But for my own peace of mind....have all those "found it" entries been deleted knowing that the caches were never visited or "found"? :confused:

Dan Grenier of TNC has deleted all of the find logs from the caches he viewed - his profile currently shows no finds anywhere and he is not playing the geocaching sport.

When I spoke with him on Monday he spoke in very positive terms about the interactions he has had with Maine geocachers via e-mail. He holds you folks in high regard, and I believe this bodes well for our future interactions.

I gave Dan some suggestions on using Google Earth to view caches in various locations and through the help of others he knows how to use pocket queries pretty effectively. If we become aware of other caches that were inadvertently placed on lands under TNC stewardship, Dan or I will work with the cache owner to resolve the issue.

-Brad

gpsfun
01-15-2008, 06:26 PM
The Nature "CONSPIRACY" Conservency is notorious for not sharing its holdings with anyone but birds and squirrels. So dont be suprised if they get apeplectic about geocaches.

Just to put things into perspective, The Nature Conservancy has stewardship responsibility for lands they own and lands that have been placed under their control through easements or other legal instruments, and they have received direction or mandates to mange these lands in specific ways. Essentially they have the same rights over these properties that any of us enjoy over property we own - we can invite others to visit our property unconditionally, conditionally, or not at all.

Mainiac1957
01-15-2008, 07:49 PM
It's nice to see that you've gotten to the bottom of this issue. I as a few other really jumped to conclusions. It's obvious that he meant no malice or ill will. It was a simple accounting error.

tat
01-15-2008, 07:59 PM
It is nice to see that we are working together. Last year, I removed one of my caches because I placed it on their property without permission. I have since appologized to The Nature Conservancy and worked with the local land manager. We now have a cache placed that meets the goals and design for the land they are trusted to take care of. And, I learned a lot in the process!

hollora
01-15-2008, 08:56 PM
The Nature Conservancy has stewardship responsibility for lands they own and lands that have been placed under their control through easements or other legal instruments, and they have received direction or mandates to mange these lands in specific ways. Essentially they have the same rights over these properties that any of us enjoy over property we own - we can invite others to visit our property unconditionally, conditionally, or not at all.

Brad - thank you for your explanations and help with clarifying things. It is sometimes hard if one does not realize The Nature Conservancy (TNC) has jurisdiction over lands which are also under other jurisdiction.

This is probably a good reminder when dealing with other land trusts and groups to ask about affiliation with TNC and who has final decision on use relative to Geocaching. It would be helpful, too, for TNC to have maps available on line.

Again, thank you all who worked on this to a smooth resolution - or so it sounds.