View Full Version : Owner Maintenance or Archived



balinda
07-15-2008, 02:24 PM
I am heading out to Monhegan this weekend and i looked at the two caches on the island. Both appear to have been muggles. One the owner has done no maintenance. It looks like Haffy went out in 2006 to fix this the last time.

The other cache on the island has been muggled the owner says it has been muggled but didn't archive it.

I have a new ammo can thank to the Slipping into summer event and a small lock n lock box.

Should I bring these out to do maintenance on these caches? Or should I create new caches? (land owner permission may be difficult on a two day trip)

Cache Maine
07-15-2008, 05:39 PM
balinda, excellent question!

I wish I had a definate answer for you, but I think that this is a really REALLY gray area. There are some caches near me that have not been maintained, so for the past 4 years, I have been doing what I can to preserve them because they are such awesome locations. I have tried repeatedly to adopt them to no avail. Just recently, I was told that these containers are not my property or the property of groundspeak and I also understand that if I want to have a cache in the area, I just need to wait for the ones there to deteriorate until they are archived due to no response from the owner. It's a catch 22 for sure. I sure wish there was a better way!

Good luck!

Haffy
07-15-2008, 08:12 PM
I am heading out to Monhegan this weekend and i looked at the two caches on the island. Both appear to have been muggles. One the owner has done no maintenance. It looks like Haffy went out in 2006 to fix this the last time.

The other cache on the island has been muggled the owner says it has been muggled but didn't archive it.

I have a new ammo can thank to the Slipping into summer event and a small lock n lock box.

Should I bring these out to do maintenance on these caches? Or should I create new caches? (land owner permission may be difficult on a two day trip)

Not sure which cache you were referring to but a group of us went to Monhegan a couple of years ago and Brdad brought a nice new camoed ammo can to replace the one by the lighthouse and the other one was a large mortar tube that looked like it would hold up pretty good as well. If it were me and I could find both of them, I would just go ahead and replace them both if there were remnants of the others to justify them. Don't think you can adopt them without a direct response from the original owners. Maybe if you wanted you could place a couple of new ones on the island in another location but like you said how would you get permission? A tough call I guess.

brdad
07-15-2008, 09:20 PM
The two caches in question are the two physical caches.

Monhegan Magic (http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?guid=bfe9cc28-fbb4-452c-8b4a-58b1c837173f) (GC9216) by Anderson (http://www.geocaching.com/profile/?id=65490) (2.5/5)

This is the cache we replaced, it has one DNF, but we looked for a few minutes and in a good sized search area before we found the cache, so it could still be there.

Monhegan Moonwatch (http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?guid=a65aff76-a90d-4bc1-8dc6-e1952f269968) (GCQ5M8) by Green Flashlight (http://www.geocaching.com/profile/?id=440060) (2/2.5)

This one has been reported missing by the cache owner.

As far as what to do, that is up to you as Cache Maine noted. On one hand, it's nice that someone decides to help out. On the other hand, I hate when people hide caches they won't maintain. On the third hand, I hate to see classic caches go away.

hollora
07-15-2008, 09:39 PM
Well, having enjoyed the ambiance of Monhegan - whow.......what would I say. GC9216 may indeed still be there - just missed my those who searched last. A nice ammo box and not a lot of places it could really go.

Moonwatch on the other hand, being confirmed as missing by the owners (who it looks like replaced it once before) is in a bit of a precarious location where it could have been dropped, muggled or just moved too.

Island folks may be playing here too - that is another consideration. But - as for maintenance - stop and think you fix it - but who is next? Catch 22 here - and, landowners permission for the cache? Has that been obtained or is that, perhaps why they are gone? Certainly a consideration.

Enjoy your visit to the island - one of the highlights of my life. Never would I have enjoyed this without Geocaching. A very fond memory. There will be the Sheridan which you can do and then perhaps the others are just misplaced.

Good luck - but regardless - enjoy the journey.

Sabby
07-15-2008, 10:03 PM
I may sound like an ogre but if it has not been found several times and has not been maintained I think you should log a "Should be archived" on GC.com. The reviewer will contact the owner and if there is no reply it will get archived. Then you can place a new cache there, with owner permission, of course.

hollora
07-15-2008, 10:07 PM
Yup, Sabby - this sounds good........the owner pemission on a one day, one time, trip to Monhegan may be the problem. Well, laid plans, however, might be rewarded. Perhaps, balinda could talk with some folks on the island to ask about land ownership, lay some ground work - and ensure the caches are missing. Maybe even generate an "islander" who would welcome cachers. Time will tell. All suggestions are good.

firefighterjake
07-16-2008, 07:41 AM
The two caches in question are the two physical caches.

Monhegan Magic (http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?guid=bfe9cc28-fbb4-452c-8b4a-58b1c837173f) (GC9216) by Anderson (http://www.geocaching.com/profile/?id=65490) (2.5/5)

This is the cache we replaced, it has one DNF, but we looked for a few minutes and in a good sized search area before we found the cache, so it could still be there.

Monhegan Moonwatch (http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?guid=a65aff76-a90d-4bc1-8dc6-e1952f269968) (GCQ5M8) by Green Flashlight (http://www.geocaching.com/profile/?id=440060) (2/2.5)

This one has been reported missing by the cache owner.

As far as what to do, that is up to you as Cache Maine noted. On one hand, it's nice that someone decides to help out. On the other hand, I hate when people hide caches they won't maintain. On the third hand, I hate to see classic caches go away.

Uh, Dave . . . how many hands do you have? You haven't been drinking water from the Penobscot again have you . . . I mean this is the only thing I can think of to explain why you might have three hands. ;):D

firefighterjake
07-16-2008, 07:42 AM
Well, having enjoyed the ambiance of Monhegan - whow.......what would I say. GC9216 may indeed still be there - just missed my those who searched last. A nice ammo box and not a lot of places it could really go.

Moonwatch on the other hand, being confirmed as missing by the owners (who it looks like replaced it once before) is in a bit of a precarious location where it could have been dropped, muggled or just moved too.

Island folks may be playing here too - that is another consideration. But - as for maintenance - stop and think you fix it - but who is next? Catch 22 here - and, landowners permission for the cache? Has that been obtained or is that, perhaps why they are gone? Certainly a consideration.

Enjoy your visit to the island - one of the highlights of my life. Never would I have enjoyed this without Geocaching. A very fond memory. There will be the Sheridan which you can do and then perhaps the others are just misplaced.

Good luck - but regardless - enjoy the journey.

That day was a blast wasn't it . . . definitely a good memory. I still have a picture of the lighthouse hanging in my bathroom . . . I think back to Monhegan every time I'm doing some quality sitting in there.

hollora
07-16-2008, 09:19 AM
That day was a blast wasn't it . . . definitely a good memory. I still have a picture of the lighthouse hanging in my bathroom . . . I think back to Monhegan every time I'm doing some quality sitting in there.

Yes, a great day with good friends! Memories to last a lifetime!

EvilHomer
07-16-2008, 10:07 AM
I may sound like an ogre but if it has not been found several times and has not been maintained I think you should log a "Should be archived" on GC.com. The reviewer will contact the owner and if there is no reply it will get archived. Then you can place a new cache there, with owner permission, of course.

I agree 100%. If a cache owner can't take care of a cache in a reasonable amount of time then it should be archived to give someone else the opportunity to put one there themselves. Something else that falls into this category is Travel bug, and Geocoin owners that dont answer emails about their TBs, or about TB's/geocoins that they have in their possession. I have sent emails, and left Log notes about several "missing" TBs in this area and I never get a response, and the TBs never get logged as missing, or no longer in the cache. I also don't always get emails back from people that have MY TB's or Geocoins when I email them. >:( If you can't keep up with the maintenance of a cache, T.B, or Geocoin then dont put them out, or don't take them out of a cache! :)

Sabby
07-16-2008, 10:45 AM
By the way. Have you looked at the stats for these two cachers??

Not truly into it in my book.

balinda
07-16-2008, 11:00 AM
Thanks everyone. I am thinking about placing a cache while I am out there. This will be my fifth trip to the island. I am a bit of an artist wanna be and travel here just for the inspiration.

I am in town for 2 days and I have to meet with some town officials for a work related thing. I think I may be able to get land owner permission with their help.

Haffy
07-16-2008, 04:10 PM
Great idea and good luck with your adventure!!!

Medawisla
07-16-2008, 07:32 PM
I don't know if Hiram wants this public just yet, so I'm vague here, but we had a cache DNF'd and the cacher "rehid it" 1.5 miles away! And the cacher isn't even from the state!

Anyway, speaking as a new cache hider, I really appreciate all the help other cachers offer in maintaining my caches (Firefighterjake and Nially!!) and cachers who keep me updated on their attempts (Dubord!). Contact with the cache hider is really important; it's curtousy, even if they don't respond. I do think if the cache hider posts the cache is missing, then the very least they can do is archive it with a note on when they expect to replace it or with a request for another cacher to replace it. I say, if the cache hider is unresponsive, and if you don't find it, then make sure to post a "needs archived" on the cache page.

Great thoughts everyone!:cool:

Mainiac1957
07-16-2008, 07:34 PM
I don't know if Hiram wants this public just yet, so I'm vague here, but we had a cache DNF'd and the cacher "rehid it" 1.5 miles away! And the cacher isn't even from the state!

You have got to be joking.:eek:

hollora
07-16-2008, 07:57 PM
I don't know if Hiram wants this public just yet, so I'm vague here, but we had a cache DNF'd and the cacher "rehid it" 1.5 miles away! And the cacher isn't even from the state!

Anyway, speaking as a new cache hider, I really appreciate all the help other cachers offer in maintaining my caches (Firefighterjake and Nially!!) and cachers who keep me updated on their attempts (Dubord!). Contact with the cache hider is really important; it's curtousy, even if they don't respond. I do think if the cache hider posts the cache is missing, then the very least they can do is archive it with a note on when they expect to replace it or with a request for another cacher to replace it. I say, if the cache hider is unresponsive, and if you don't find it, then make sure to post a "needs archived" on the cache page.

Great thoughts everyone!:cool:

I think that may be 0.15m (I can never get my decimels in the right place LOL) but regardless - :confused: About how the lack of finding the cache and just placing out another would meet the challenge ~ I bet the Cache Owner for the challenge will take care of it!;)

dí76
07-16-2008, 08:24 PM
I don't know if Hiram wants this public just yet, so I'm vague here, but we had a cache DNF'd and the cacher "rehid it" 1.5 miles away! :cool:


:p:p:pFunny:p:p:p

That spruced up playing scrabble on the deck

Hiram357
07-16-2008, 10:17 PM
You have got to be joking.:eek:

nope, they DNFd ours and rehid another to get the delorme map...

and I highly doubt that ours is missing since upsalquitch found it last week, and it's not in a very "high muggle" area...

hollora
07-16-2008, 10:23 PM
And hopefully, the owners of the DeLorme Challenge will disallow their placement for a "find" on that map by just doing that placement. That is a possiblity and I have faith in our Maine group. Agreed - highly unlikely it is "missing".

Heck - if that was all one had to do to finish the challenge - this whole challenge would have probably been finished a lot sooner by a lot of other cachers. To bad someone wasn't going up soon to find that map and be able to find/log your cache - that would "blow" their DNF log out of the water.

brdad
07-17-2008, 06:03 AM
I'm confused. So this person
A: DNF'd the cache, so hid a new cache to claim the grid.
B: Replaced the DNF'd cache and claimed it as a find.

And how far away? 1.5 miles? .15 miles?

Mainiac1957
07-17-2008, 06:13 AM
nope, they DNFd ours and rehid another to get the delorme map...

and I highly doubt that ours is missing since upsalquitch found it last week, and it's not in a very "high muggle" area...

If you look at some of their other hides most are archived. The cache names even suggest that they place lame caches. That's just the way that player chooses to play the game. Remember the rule is there ain't no rules. For the most part anyway. I don't personally agree with it, but you know what they say about opinions.;)

Mainiac1957
07-17-2008, 06:14 AM
I'm confused. So this person
A: DNF'd the cache, so hid a new cache to claim the grid.
B: Replaced the DNF'd cache and claimed it as a find.

And how far away? 1.5 miles? .15 miles?

.15 miles and it has not been published.

Sabby
07-17-2008, 07:19 AM
.15 miles and it has not been published.

How do you claim a find for an unpublished cache???

Or even claim a placed cache???

Hiram357
07-17-2008, 07:19 AM
I'm confused. So this person
A: DNF'd the cache, so hid a new cache to claim the grid.
B: Replaced the DNF'd cache and claimed it as a find.

And how far away? 1.5 miles? .15 miles?

OOH!! OOH!!! I KNOW THE ANSWER!!! IT'S A!!

and their hide was .15mi away...

here's a link to the cache page

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?guid=ec055f92-fd50-4ed7-99df-68753e16415d

Hiram357
07-17-2008, 07:21 AM
How do you claim a find for an unpublished cache???

Or even claim a placed cache???


for the delorme challenge, if you hide a cache on that page you can claim it. And I see it still hasn't been published yet, I'm wondering if our cache approver is having issues with someone from out of state placing a cache so far out of reach...

firefighterjake
07-17-2008, 07:22 AM
nope, they DNFd ours and rehid another to get the delorme map...

and I highly doubt that ours is missing since upsalquitch found it last week, and it's not in a very "high muggle" area...

Just read their log . . . very odd. Based on the placement (high and dry), cache container (a decent sized Lock n' Lock container) and fact that a long-time, reliable cacher found it shortly before (i.e. Upsalquitch . . . who has a long history of rehiding caches the way he found them and knows the rules) and based on the location (i.e. in the middle of nowhere with very, very little chance of a cache being found) I am a bit suspicious of this . . .

It also seems a bit odd that they logged the DNF for this cache this week . . . but there are no other logged cache finds in all of Maine and they live in Massachusetts (the last recorded cache find was in early July I think it was down in MA). I say this is a bit odd since I tend to log all my finds and DNFs whenever I've been out on a caching trip all at once . . . and it just seems strange that someone would drive all that way for one cache and then log a DNF and no other finds. I mean what I'm trying to say is that when we swung through the Northwoods we grabbed the other caches "in the area" . . . I recorded mine the next day, Steph recorded her finds a day or two later and Hiram used the auto-download feature using GSAK. I mean stranger things have happened and folks do strange things . . . just seems a mite bit odd to me.

Hiram . . . the only possibilities that I could possibly come up with is a fisherman stumbling on to it . . . although it seems to me that they would be a bit closer to the stream or is it possible that we were too close to the Allagash Wilderness Waterway . . . I mean I too looked at a map and it seemed as though we were well enough away from that restricted area . . . but maybe someone monitoring caches in the area thought we were too close . . . or maybe it was paper company folks . . . or maybe it was the green men in the space ship . . . or the shooter on the grassy knoll. :D;) In any case, very odd.

So . . . uh . . . when are we going back to check on this cache??? :rolleyes::D

Hiram357
07-17-2008, 07:29 AM
Just read their log . . . very odd. Based on the placement (high and dry), cache container (a decent sized Lock n' Lock container) and fact that a long-time, reliable cacher found it shortly before (i.e. Upsalquitch . . . who has a long history of rehiding caches the way he found them and knows the rules) and based on the location (i.e. in the middle of nowhere with very, very little chance of a cache being found) I am a bit suspicious of this . . .

It also seems a bit odd that they logged the DNF for this cache this week . . . but there are no other logged cache finds in all of Maine and they live in Massachusetts (the last recorded cache find was in early July I think it was down in MA). I say this is a bit odd since I tend to log all my finds and DNFs whenever I've been out on a caching trip all at once . . . and it just seems strange that someone would drive all that way for one cache and then log a DNF and no other finds. I mean what I'm trying to say is that when we swung through the Northwoods we grabbed the other caches "in the area" . . . I recorded mine the next day, Steph recorded her finds a day or two later and Hiram used the auto-download feature using GSAK. I mean stranger things have happened and folks do strange things . . . just seems a mite bit odd to me.

Hiram . . . the only possibilities that I could possibly come up with is a fisherman stumbling on to it . . . although it seems to me that they would be a bit closer to the stream or is it possible that we were too close to the Allagash Wilderness Waterway . . . I mean I too looked at a map and it seemed as though we were well enough away from that restricted area . . . but maybe someone monitoring caches in the area thought we were too close . . . or maybe it was paper company folks . . . or maybe it was the green men in the space ship . . . or the shooter on the grassy knoll. :D;) In any case, very odd.

So . . . uh . . . when are we going back to check on this cache??? :rolleyes::D


Well, I took today and tomorrow off, and was going to work on packing and moving, but if you drive, i'll navigate!! :D:D:D

(you can come pick me up, we'll grab a few boxes for the move, and we'll swing by this cache on our way to bangor...) :D:D:D

Hiram357
07-17-2008, 07:31 AM
and I don't think I can see your allagash theory happening, it is pretty well away from it, and I also think that if someone thought it was too close that our ears would be hurting pretty bad by now...

Hiram357
07-17-2008, 07:33 AM
Just read their log . . . very odd. Based on the placement (high and dry), cache container (a decent sized Lock n' Lock container) and fact that a long-time, reliable cacher found it shortly before (i.e. Upsalquitch . . . who has a long history of rehiding caches the way he found them and knows the rules) ....

and I have proof that he found it, he posted that he took my pathtag from the cache, and there was no way of knowing that it was in there unless someone dun dun dunnn... "found it" so we know it's there...

firefighterjake
07-17-2008, 01:46 PM
and I have proof that he found it, he posted that he took my pathtag from the cache, and there was no way of knowing that it was in there unless someone dun dun dunnn... "found it" so we know it's there...

So I guess I'm confused . . . why would he post that he didn't find it and then hide another one .15 miles away . . . if he in fact did find it. I am so very confused right now.

Hiram357
07-17-2008, 02:14 PM
So I guess I'm confused . . . why would he post that he didn't find it and then hide another one .15 miles away . . . if he in fact did find it. I am so very confused right now.


Read slower jake... it's "proof that upsalquitch found it, hes the one that logged my pathtag"

firefighterjake
07-17-2008, 02:31 PM
Read slower jake... it's "proof that upsalquitch found it, hes the one that logged my pathtag"

Ah, but didn't Upsalquitch find this cache and take the pathtag before the other guy logged the DNF? I'm still confused . . . but then again this is what I read when I perused through your last log (the Hiram method of reading :p;):D)

"and I have proof . . . words, words, words, words, words, words, words, words, words, words, words, words, words, words, words . . . it's there...

:D

Hiram357
07-17-2008, 03:24 PM
Ah, but didn't Upsalquitch find this cache and take the pathtag before the other guy logged the DNF? I'm still confused . . . but then again this is what I read when I perused through your last log (the Hiram method of reading :p;):D)

"and I have proof . . . words, words, words, words, words, words, words, words, words, words, words, words, words, words, words . . . it's there...

:D

Jake... I quoted the part of you talking about upsalquitch, so I was still talking about upsalquitch, and words, words, words, words, words, words, words, words, words, words, words, words, words, words, words

sheesh!

just forget I said anything about it! :p;):rolleyes::D

Mainiac1957
07-17-2008, 03:35 PM
Jake doesn't read fast so you need to type slower. L i k e t h i s!! S e e. :D:rolleyes::p



























Sorry Jake I c a n' t h e l p i t! :rolleyes:

Sabby
07-17-2008, 05:42 PM
OK now I am c o n f u s e d

A cacher from Mass. wants to complete the ME Delorme challange so he goes out in search of the caches. One per grid.

He gets to a cache and can't find it so he hides one about 0.15 miles away. The first cache is still there though he just couldn't find it.

The cache he placed has not been approved. Probably because he is from Mass and not close enough to maintain it.

So if the Maine approver does not approve the cache is it in fact a placed cache?

I believe that it was the only cache in the grid so it was a case of find it or not be able to complete the challange until the cache was archived or somebody placed a cache someplace else in the grid.

Sounds like Team Teebow needs to make a decision on this. I did not see it covered in their writeup for the challange. As I read it you had to find an existing cache in each grid or you could place one if none existed. It did not cover you can place one because you could not find one that was there.

Interesting to see the outcome?

brdad
07-17-2008, 06:19 PM
There was at least one cache placed to qualify as a grid even though caches existed there that I know of. So, I think it is allowed. And, if the cache gets approved, it should qualify. Whether or not is should is another debate.

The cacher came up with the main purpose of getting some of the grids. I know this because I corresponded with him prior to his making the trip.

I don't approve of vacation caches, but I'd approve less of people who DNF a cache and replace the 'missing' cache so they can log it as a find.

Sudonim
07-17-2008, 06:47 PM
I know of at least two caches that have been placed on grids already having caches to qualify for the challenge. I think that, even though this looks odd, Team Teebow would have to accept this one as well. (Of course, it IS his cache and he has total and final word on what goes and what doesn't.)

Hiram357
07-17-2008, 09:11 PM
There was at least one cache placed to qualify as a grid even though caches existed there that I know of. So, I think it is allowed. And, if the cache gets approved, it should qualify. Whether or not is should is another debate.

The cacher came up with the main purpose of getting some of the grids. I know this because I corresponded with him prior to his making the trip.

I don't approve of vacation caches, but I'd approve less of people who DNF a cache and replace the 'missing' cache so they can log it as a find.

When jake and i were up there, neither of us had any caches showing for that grid (and we both had fairly recents PQs) so we assumed that it was one of the virtual tour caches that was on that map before. So we went out fully prepared to place a cache (and we even had enough of a stock to replace andy's) but at least in the case of andy's cache (the seboomok) i knew where the old cache was and was able to replace it. This guy claiming it wasn't there didn't know where it was. (and also I make my rounds to my out there caches at least once or twice a year)

dubord207
07-18-2008, 06:37 AM
I think that there are cachers with multi-thousands of caches who become self-absorbed with themselves and twist the rules to fatten their already over inflated egos. This is a classic case and a message to the rest of us. The cacher was frustrated that after all the driving and his "expertise" that he couldn't find this cache. So log a damned DNF and get over it! I may have 3000 caches someday and if ever start displaying this type of arrogance then come slap me in the side of the head!!! I hope our Maine Publisher looks very carefully at all of this before publishing that cache as IMHO it violates the spirit of our game.

Opalsns
07-18-2008, 07:13 AM
I think that there are cachers with multi-thousands of caches who become self-absorbed with themselves and twist the rules to fatten their already over inflated egos. This is a classic case and a message to the rest of us. The cacher was frustrated that after all the driving and his "expertise" that he couldn't find this cache. So log a damned DNF and get over it! I may have 3000 caches someday and if ever start displaying this type of arrogance then come slap me in the side of the head!!! I hope our Maine Publisher looks very carefully at all of this before publishing that cache as IMHO it violates the spirit of our game.

I agree!!!
BTW ....Which side of your head would you suggest!!!:o:o;)

WhereRWe?
07-18-2008, 07:22 AM
I think that there are cachers with multi-thousands of caches who become self-absorbed with themselves and twist the rules to fatten their already over inflated egos. This is a classic case and a message to the rest of us. The cacher was frustrated that after all the driving and his "expertise" that he couldn't find this cache. So log a damned DNF and get over it!

I agree. The way some people would hadle this - definitely people with "milti-thousands" of finds - would be to have the family dog (a premium member of GC.com with almost 9,000 finds for example), place a cache nearby and then log it yourself. LOL!

:rolleyes::rolleyes:

brdad
07-18-2008, 08:39 AM
There really is little twisting of the rules here. If the cacher can show he can maintain it, there is nothing else he has done to twist any rules. We have cachers in this sate that have hidden caches in other states, and they hopefully maintain them. Mass is not that far for some individuals to maintain a cache.

I'm not trying to stand up for this guy, but there is no need to trash an individual without knowing the details. Do I think there's a good chance it won't get maintained? Probably.

If I had my way, cachers would only be able to hide caches within a set distance of home base, maybe 100 miles, and they would have to be 1 mile apart, not .1 mile. If I made the rules for the Delorme Challenge, I probably would have allowed new caches only if there were no other caches on the grid. But, I am not the maker of th rules of the challenge or geocaching.

Until gc.com approvers deny the cache placement, this cacher has not performed any actions against the rules, and if it is denied, he has made a mistake made by many others.

firefighterjake
07-18-2008, 09:00 AM
Maybe I'm reading things wrong here . . . and I still think it's odd that there was a DNF log on this cache, but no other found logs or DNFs (at least when I checked out this cacher's found/hidden cache page at gc.com the other day), but other than not finding the Orca cache and then hiding his own cache I don't see any real issues and agree with Brdad.

As Brdad said, and I agree, if folks want to hide a cache and can maintain that cache then I have no issues with them hiding that cache. While I think it is highly unlikely that a person from several states away will be able to effectively maintain a cache this deep in the Maine North Woods unless he happens to have a camp up here or regularly hunts/fishes/camps in the area and while I personally tend to restrict my cache hides to local areas (local to where I live and local to where I work) other folks have and can hide and maintain caches a fair distance from where they live and work (i.e. Hiram and Gob-ler spring to mind as two guys that have hidden some caches and have maintained their caches even though some are far from their home base.)

I also agree with Dave in saying that we really don't know what is going on with this cacher and it seems to me that we as a collective group and me personally (i.e. Wolf) have jumped to false conclusions in the past (very easy to do on a BBS such as this) . . . so I think I will try to keep an open mind about this cache and cacher until details are known . . . after all . . . it is possible that the cache that the Orcas hid may have been muggled and the guy hid another cache to meet the DeLorme challenge rules -- something that I really can't fault him for doing.

And finally as for "twisting" the rules for the DeLorme challenge . . . well I might plea mea culpa . . . since Hiram, Medawisla and I didn't realize there was another cache available in one grid and hid a cache (apparently allowed, but again some might consider this stretching the rules a bit) and then on one of Sudonim's caches Medawisla and I were unable to find it (as were a few other cachers before us). Since Hiram had found it before and knew exactly where it was before we searched some more, came up empty and Hiram re-hid the cache in the same spot and later contacted Andy to see if this was OK (again some might have thought we stretched the rules since Medawisla and I "found" the cache after Hiram re-hid the cache -- incidentally we would not have logged this cache as a find or placed this cache if a) Hiram had not found this before and knew exactly where it was located before or b) we did not know Andy well enough to assume what he would want and c) in logs and e-mails we asked Andy to delete our logs if he felt this was not a legitimate find and to let us know if he would want us to go back and remove the cache container.

firefighterjake
07-18-2008, 09:01 AM
I agree. The way some people would hadle this - definitely people with "milti-thousands" of finds - would be to have the family dog (a premium member of GC.com with almost 9,000 finds for example), place a cache nearby and then log it yourself. LOL!

:rolleyes::rolleyes:

I've got five cats . . . maybe I should create memberships for each of them and have them hide caches for me to find . . . but it might be a bit weird since three of the cats are named after dead Presidents of the United States (i.e. John Tyler, Calvin Coolidge and Theodore Roosevelt.) ;):D

firefighterjake
07-18-2008, 09:02 AM
Jake doesn't read fast so you need to type slower. L i k e t h i s!! S e e. :D:rolleyes::p


Sorry Jake I c a n' t h e l p i t! :rolleyes:

I like riding the shortbus and licking the windows! ;):D

firefighterjake
07-18-2008, 09:08 AM
. . .
I don't approve of vacation caches, but I'd approve less of people who DNF a cache and replace the 'missing' cache so they can log it as a find.

Does this mean you won't respect me when you wake up in the morning Dave? ;):D

Not sure if this was directed at me personally or just a general opinion . . . in either case I don't take it personally. However, we did just this . . . but there were some mitigating circumstances (i.e. another cacher present had found the cache before and knew where it was -- the main reason we did what we did -- we would not have done this if none of us had not found this cache previously, e-mails were sent to the cache owner afterwards to make sure it was OK to replace the missing cache and the cachers who logged this as a find also understood that the cache owner could disqualify their find if he so choose.)

firefighterjake
07-18-2008, 09:40 AM
Oh . . . I had another thought pertaining to this topic. At the end of the day the thing we all need to remember is (wait for it . . . it's that oldie, but goodie) . . .

It's just a game. ;):D

Sabby
07-18-2008, 11:27 AM
There was at least one cache placed to qualify as a grid even though caches existed there that I know of. So, I think it is allowed. And, if the cache gets approved, it should qualify. Whether or not is should is another debate.




I read the Delorme challange again and see that I probably misinterperted it before. I agree with you now. As long as the cache gets approved it's OK.

Hiram357
07-18-2008, 11:27 AM
And finally as for "twisting" the rules for the DeLorme challenge . . . well I might plea mea culpa . . . since Hiram, Medawisla and I didn't realize there was another cache available in one grid and hid a cache

Jake, there are no other caches on that grid, i checked again last night

Opalsns
07-18-2008, 01:02 PM
[quote=firefighterjake;44684]Maybe I'm reading things wrong here . . . and I still think it's odd that there was a DNF log on this cache, but no other found logs or DNFs (at least when I checked out this cacher's found/hidden cache page at gc.com the other day), but other than not finding the Orca cache and then hiding his own cache I don't see any real issues and agree with Brdad.


FFJ,

Upsalquich was playing with Hiram and Bailey came along and pulled Medawisla's hair, so Hiram kicked Bailey, and they all got sent to the Principals Office!!!;)

firefighterjake
07-18-2008, 01:27 PM
Jake, there are no other caches on that grid, i checked again last night

I always trust my Hiram Hiram and if the Hiram Hiram says there were no other caches than there were no other caches. ;):D

Hiram357
07-18-2008, 02:26 PM
I always trust my Hiram Hiram and if the Hiram Hiram says there were no other caches than there were no other caches. ;):D


these are not the droids you are looking for... :cool:

firefighterjake
07-18-2008, 02:51 PM
these are not the droids you are looking for... :cool:

"These aren't the droids we're looking for . . . move along, move along." ;):D

brdad
07-18-2008, 07:37 PM
Does this mean you won't respect me when you wake up in the morning Dave? ;):D

Not sure if this was directed at me personally or just a general opinion . . . in either case I don't take it personally. However, we did just this . . . but there were some mitigating circumstances (i.e. another cacher present had found the cache before and knew where it was -- the main reason we did what we did -- we would not have done this if none of us had not found this cache previously, e-mails were sent to the cache owner afterwards to make sure it was OK to replace the missing cache and the cachers who logged this as a find also understood that the cache owner could disqualify their find if he so choose.)

No, it was not directed at you. In fact, when I made the post I had no idea you were a chea... err, liked to bend the rules. Ok, just joking ;) Well, except for the part where I didn't know what you had done.

Anyway, I consider your situation slightly different because the cache's non-existence was verified by a previous finder, and replaced by him, not you. In that situation, I probably would have turned my back while it was re-hid and then gone to find it afterward.

I consider this different than if you had gone there alone, not found the cache, and replaced the cache where you assumed it was supposed to be and then logged it as a find. This has been done before.

That's my opinion anyway...

firefighterjake
07-21-2008, 07:46 AM
No, it was not directed at you. In fact, when I made the post I had no idea you were a chea... err, liked to bend the rules. Ok, just joking ;) Well, except for the part where I didn't know what you had done.

Anyway, I consider your situation slightly different because the cache's non-existence was verified by a previous finder, and replaced by him, not you. In that situation, I probably would have turned my back while it was re-hid and then gone to find it afterward.

I consider this different than if you had gone there alone, not found the cache, and replaced the cache where you assumed it was supposed to be and then logged it as a find. This has been done before.

That's my opinion anyway...

So you still respect me . . . well tolerate me here at least. ;):D

I wasn't sure if the comment was directed to me as I mentioned . . . but honestly I wasn't taking anything personally anyways even if it had been . . . and like you said, if the other cacher had not found this cache previously and knew exactly where it was it would have remained as a DNF . . . I have never and will never replace a cache where I think it should be and log it as a find . . . of course if I did I would probably have close to 2,000 finds now instead of a lot of sad faces. ;):D

firefighterjake
07-23-2008, 06:58 AM
nope, they DNFd ours and rehid another to get the delorme map...

and I highly doubt that ours is missing since upsalquitch found it last week, and it's not in a very "high muggle" area...

So I've got this cache on my watchlist and I noticed that the folks who DNFed this find and then stated they were going to hide another cache in the area have now found this cache on the very same date that they DNFed it . . . and the DNF entry is now gone.

Anyone have any idea of what is going on? Did they find it or not? Was the other cache approved? I am so very, very confused . . . well more confused than normal.

hollora
07-23-2008, 10:04 AM
So I've got this cache on my watchlist and I noticed that the folks who DNFed this find and then stated they were going to hide another cache in the area have now found this cache on the very same date that they DNFed it . . . and the DNF entry is now gone.

Anyone have any idea of what is going on? Did they find it or not? Was the other cache approved? I am so very, very confused . . . well more confused than normal.

One way to know for sure - what's on the log?

Hiram357
07-23-2008, 11:47 AM
let not your heart be troubled, I shall send an email of inquiry, if all else fails.. road trip! I need to check on my Omaha cache anyways... :D

hollora
07-23-2008, 02:09 PM
let not your heart be troubled, I shall send an email of inquiry, if all else fails.. road trip! I need to check on my Omaha cache anyways... :D

Road trip - when?!:eek: Car pool - I mean ride share???;) When? :) I would love to go if it's when I'm available. :D

Hiram357
07-23-2008, 02:14 PM
Road trip - when?!:eek: Car pool - I mean ride share???;) When? :) I would love to go if it's when I'm available. :D


well... its 2:15 now... and i've got nothin better to do... :rolleyes: