View Full Version : Do You Need Landowner Permission To Place A Cache?



hollora
09-03-2009, 09:39 PM
In another thread, squirrelcache wrote, "I agree and think it would be very responsible of a C.O. to note the land manager and source for permission. Sounds like a new thread I thought about starting Just not sure I want to be the one to ruffle folks feathers."

Well, I will be the brave one to start a thread for this discussion. Some concerns have already been discussed on this site before. So - we will start with some of my 2 cents and feelings............

IMHO, the prudent thing to do is to obtain landowners permission. Granted, there are some truly public areas and public owned property where this may be hard to do. There is a difference between difficulty in doing it and just not bothering.

What we all stand to loose, by ignoring this basic courtesy, is the ability to put out caches at all. This has happened in many other states and in Maine, too (areas regulated by The Nature Conservancy, for example). When folks enter property without permission - be it private or public (intended for specific use), it puts others in jeapordy of loosing rights.

In other discussions, it has been suggested the cache owner (CO) of a cache, place information about permission in the cache page. Although not required by Geocaching.com, it is perhaps a good idea. Also a good idea to make sure if public land is used, and even by permission, that any rules are posted, i.e. Cemeteries in Maine by State Law it is illegal to enter after dark. Some parks have posted rules. Etc.

To publish an Earthcache you do have to provide information about who gave permission for the "cache" and contact information. This is interesting as an Earthcache has no physical container and usually no Geotrail. As with all caches, the person seeking the cache must access the land.

The definition of "public" may vary. I am not an attorney, like several on this site, but I do know common sense should prevail. Just because it looks public doesn't mean it is.

Not all "roads" in Maine are public just because your vehicle might be able to travel over them. There is a definition of "right of way" in this state. Just because it is not posted "No Trespassing" doesn't mean you can go across someone's land. Just because a place is “public” doesn’t mean it is ok to place a cache. The Bangor Waterfront is a good example of a public owned property where caches are not welcome. The Bangor Harbor Master has clearly said he wants “no caches” on his waterfront. Just a few examples for the stimulation of discussion.

So, what should we do if we are seeking a cache, it appears to truly be on private land and we may be trespassing? One thing might be, to just not finish seeking the cache? Or, do you find the cache, log it and then inquire of the cache owner? And what if they don’t know whose land it is on?

So many questions can be posed around a “simple” question. Should we seek permission before placing a cache? So let the discussion begin………..


PS - before asked, do I, personally have permission for each and every cache I have out? The answer is no. Of all the caches put out, it is less than 10% for which permission was not specifically obtained. These are all Guard Rail caches (of which I have had a discussion with Department of Transportation in Augusta regarding these and some I adopted).

squirrelcache
09-03-2009, 11:12 PM
If you're on land where a cache has been questionably blessed by the land owner....it's you the cacher that is responsible for your tresspass, not the C.O.. ;)

squirrelcache
09-04-2009, 12:43 AM
For those who haven't seen it.....on August 29th it was published. "The New Hampshire Bureau of Trails said 12,000 acres of forest in the Ossipee Mountains region have been closed to the public due to irresponsible trail users."

We've all seen many times where caches have been placed in sensitive areas, and the FTF cachers trample the whole area to find it. It doesn't help when someone's new to the game and doesn't have good equipment or understand proper and wise placement. Then it doesn't take long before the geo-trail is ground in to stay for a long time after it's abandoned. Such geo-trails are off-trail and against most trail use policies.

Guess this story is a Huge reminder to us all to keep an eye out, and act ethically in our caching. The placement of a cache might be questionable....that doesn't mean we have to support that wrong. Most of us are great about helping to right the wrong.

Learn to cache.... Love to cache...... Help others to learn.... Help others to Love it

brdad
09-04-2009, 06:04 AM
I think permission is a great idea. That being said, I have not succeeded in getting permission for any of my caches. Should TPTB make it a requirement to obtain and post permission information on every cache page, I would welcome it. If anyone was questioned at a cache site the contact information would be right there. An added benefit is that is would help curb the haphazard hiding of caches.

Some places are just plain tough tougher to find the land owners or a contact person. What gets me is people who hide a cache at a Fast Food restaurant or a shopping center or as Hollora mentioned the Nature Conservancy. Most of these types of locations have a decent route to someone in charge. Yes, it might take a while or a meeting or two, but it's not often hard to find someone in charge.



We've all seen many times where caches have been placed in sensitive areas, and the FTF cachers trample the whole area to find it. It doesn't help when someone's new to the game and doesn't have good equipment or understand proper and wise placement.

Exactly! This is what I have been preaching for years! And it's not right to single out FTFers. Anyone racing cache to cache to get as many as possible has a better chance of doing damage to cache locations and make a negative impact on the sport. And then there's the people who have not been informed or just don't care about what impact they make. It can be FTFers, rally runners, or just any individual in a hurry for any reason. And, hiding in a hurry can make a person place a cache in an area that is not the best choice as well. While permission can't prevent the finders from making bad choices, it might slow down a hider enough to think over his cache location and what impact that location will have on the cache, particularly thinking about how other cachers who might not be thoughtful will access the cache - and ultimately what impact it will have on caching in general.

If cache hiders took the time to fully think over their location and all the possible wrong ways cachers might access the cache and what the location would be like in all seasons and how the terrain might be impacted by all cachers in all seasons, everyone will benefit and permission might be less of an issue in many locations! But I will still promote getting permission.

This is a good topic and relates to a poll I posted a while back. If you haven't voted there yet, please do! How many caches have you placed with permission? (http://www.geocachingmaine.org/forum/showthread.php?p=54311#post54311)

pm28570
09-04-2009, 08:55 AM
It's a great discussion topic, one that I hope generates some good discussion. Can you elaborate a little more on the Bangor Harbor Master reasons. Certainly I can appreciate and respect his position and decision, just would like to know more. The fact is, caching brings in people and raises awareness.

And, how did the DOT discussion go?



The Bangor Waterfront is a good example of a public owned property where caches are not welcome. The Bangor Harbor Master has clearly said he wants “no caches” on his waterfront. Just a few examples for the stimulation of discussion.


These are all Guard Rail caches (of which I have had a discussion with Department of Transportation in Augusta regarding these and some I adopted).

TRF
09-04-2009, 08:58 AM
I agree wholeheartedly with getting permission. Although I find it weird how FTF'ers and "rally'ers" as well as new cachers are singled out as destructive. I find that some cachers simply don't care, regardless of the number of finds they have. I think some of the new cacher are actually more conscientious of their actions than some of the veterans. Also, when I think in terms of damage at a cache location then the C.O. has to take some responsibility and not put a 5 hide in a sensitive area. Putting a micro container in a rock wall would be asking to have the rock wall torn down. Sticking a magnetic cache on an antique item is begging for people to climb all over it. Impact on an area isn't necessarily caused by one persons actions but can be cumulative from many cachers. The fact is those-who-think-they-cache-better than others are nieve if they think they leave no impact on an area. While my footsteps won't leave a dirt path to a newly placed cache, thousands of footsteps will. As a cache owner it would be my responsibility to one, not take advantage of permission given by allowing an area to be torn up and secondly to allow my fellow geocachers to enjoy an area by letting them know in the cache description what is expected of them when visiting.

Just because we get permission to place a cache doesn't mean that we have the right to destroy the area. I placed one cache (with permission) and was told explicitly that if the damage became noticable that the cache would need to be removed. One would not even need a GPSr to find that cache, of course the cacher would be required to read the description. As a responsibly Cache hider I put this cache far enough off the road to discourage those who think this would be a quick find. On the other hand, a recent series that was put out also was done responsibly. One can now do 100 plus caches in one day without being coined as destructive. That C.O. acted responsibly and thought out each hide well. His series has been met with great enthusiam.

brdad
09-04-2009, 09:15 AM
Although I find it weird how FTF'ers and "rally'ers" as well as new cachers are singled out as destructive.

That was not quite the statement I made or was trying to make. My claim was that anyone, including myself is more likely to (intentionally or unintentionally) cut corners or make bad errors in judgment when they are in a hurry. Working construction I see and have this happen to me on a regular basis.

That does not mean that there are not people who take their time and make the same errors, and it does not mean that there are not people who move swiftly that make few errors.

And regarding new cachers - they generally make mistakes from being misinformed or uninformed. Older cachers generally make mistakes from being sloppy and they often take the sport for granted.

Regardless, this part of the conversation has less to do with actual topic of this thread other than to point out that requiring permission for a cache might give a cache hider more time to consider the impact cachers of all types and styles will have on his chosen location.

pm28570
09-04-2009, 09:29 AM
Now that I have an additional cup of coffee in me, and having looked at Brdad's poll, I've had an opportunity to consider the topic. I think there are a large number of cache placers, who are experienced cachers, have been involved in the activity longer than a few months (more like years) and are quite responsible in how they participate in this activity whether it be placing a cache or seeking a cache. Where appropriate, they seek permission from landowners or the managing agent. They include this information in the cache description, for example.

But it seems in the past year, there have been a number of caches placed by relatively new participants that have exploded on the geocaching scene. The excitement they have for geocaching is admirable and one that I can appreciate and still have. However, I can't help but think when multiple new caches are being placed daily, several days in a row, it must be quite an ordeal obtaining landowner permissions. Certainly my comments are not directed to any one cacher or to any one geographic area. Living in central/eastern Maine and working in southern Maine, I have several notifications set up for new caches in the area I work, live and travel so I see this across the state, the exception being northern Maine, most likely due to demographics.

At the risk of being redundant and repeating myself, with caching and cache placement comes responsibilities. Land owner permission is just one of these responsibilities. We'll leave the others to another thread, another day.

Finally, I'd like to comment on Brdad's poll. Unfortunately, the majority of members who contribute to this forum and participate in the community are responsible cachers. With that in mind, I think these are the respondents and as such, the results are weighted and not representative of cache placement across Maine. That said, please, please, please keep on doing these polls, stats and the seemingly endless bits of information you do. It is so helpful.

Well, this is really the first "opinion" post (for the most part) that I've done since joining GCM.org. Probably best that I return to "ears open, mouth closed" mode.

brdad
09-04-2009, 10:58 AM
Well, this is really the first "opinion" post (for the most part) that I've done since joining GCM.org. Probably best that I return to "ears open, mouth closed" mode.

No, keep up with the comments, this site is only as good as it's members and the more input we have on any topic the better!

Opalsns
09-04-2009, 11:32 AM
We went to Eustis last year to do some of the new caches put out along with the old.
At one GRC 2 car loads of cachers from Canada, down for the event showed up at the cache we were doing . We were signing the log in the car. We told them we had it and one of them came to the truck to get it. We left and went to the next one , before we finished signing it, They showed up right behind us again. We gave them the cache and went to the next, MOOSELOOK. A full size cache a little in the woods. We walked in around the sand piles and headed up the "trail" area.
Yup, They they were pulling in and Ran from the cars up and over and around and the group went running by us through the woods. They were still looking for it when we got to GZ and within seconds Bubba said , found it. Just as he reached for it , one of the group stepped infront of him to reach for the cache. Bubba stepped on the cache and said, I found it , I'll go through it first. Bubba is the calm one. I would have shoved him on his a_ _.
We signed the log and gave them the cache and turned to go back to the truck, Within seconds 3 of the Canada group Charged passed us racing each other back to their vehicles. Some may have noticed the trampled areas around there at that time.
They really made caching there that day unenjoyable , so we left.

And before anyone gets their Granny Panties in a giant wadd......

They WERE from Canada and I don't know their names or I wouldn't have used the term Canadian Cachers, AND , I am not acusing Any Canadian Cachers of Anything. I'm just referencing to the " Rush and Trample" approach we saw that day. I have never seen it before or again.!!

Opalsns

WhereRWe?
09-04-2009, 12:00 PM
They WERE from Canada and I don't know their names or I wouldn't have used the term Canadian Cachers, AND , I am not acusing Any Canadian Cachers of Anything. I'm just referencing to the " Rush and Trample" approach we saw that day. I have never seen it before or again.!!


We've seen that type of behavior before - and it isn't limited to Canadians. :mad::mad:

Opalsns
09-04-2009, 12:20 PM
And before anyone gets their Granny Panties in a giant wadd......

They WERE from Canada and I don't know their names or I wouldn't have used the term Canadian Cachers, AND , I am not acusing Any Canadian Cachers of Anything. I'm just referencing to the " Rush and Trample" approach we saw that day. I have never seen it before or again.!!

Opalsns


We've seen that type of behavior before - and it isn't limited to Canadians. :mad::mad:

Bruce,
Next time you Quote my post, Please,READ IT FIRST!!!!!!

I said I wasn't Acusing Canadians!!!!!!

You totally Ran all around my point and Trampled my intentions ......

HHHHHHHHMMMMMMMMMMMMmmmmmmm ?????????

brdad
09-04-2009, 12:26 PM
I think Bruce was agreeing with you, backing your claim that actions such as this are not limited to Canadians. That is the way I took it.

tat
09-04-2009, 12:51 PM
By submitting a cache listing, you assure us that you have adequate permission to hide your cache in the selected location.

The guidelines do not make a distiction between public and private land. By placing a cache, you assure Groundspeak and all geocachers that you have adequate permission to hide your cache regardless of where it is hidden.

Opalsns
09-04-2009, 12:56 PM
I think Bruce was agreeing with you, backing your claim that actions such as this are not limited to Canadians. That is the way I took it.



Oh Ok , I thought the Mad faces ment he was mad at me for saying Canada.

So Sorry Bruce,

I get it now,
Thank You Brdad,
anyway, It really surprised me.
At first I thought they were going for an FTF or something, but that's an old cache.
It just made caching near them unpleasent.

WhereRWe?
09-04-2009, 01:55 PM
Bruce,
Next time you Quote my post, Please,READ IT FIRST!!!!!!

I said I wasn't Acusing Canadians!!!!!!

You totally Ran all around my point and Trampled my intentions ......


No - I'm sorry, but I didn't. You took my comment wrong.

WhereRWe?
09-04-2009, 01:59 PM
OK - read the next 2 comments. My "mad" faces were directed at this type of caching behavior, and not at any specific person or nationality.

In fact, I was reinforcing Crow's condemnation of the "rush and trample" approach, not criticizing her comment.

:D:D

squirrelcache
09-04-2009, 07:31 PM
At a fishing spot in Boothbay....I sat on the rocks well away from GZ to protect integrity should someone come along. Sure enough....an out of State car pulled up and one of us gave the muggle alert in time before a couple jumped out. The guy looking at his brand new 60csx walked right over to where it was.....then yelled....it's missing. I was appalled and almost didn't speak up. I said "you looking for this"!? He came over and signed the log. Then went into talking about 356 finds on his 90th day of caching. Then went into bragging about stealth and showed us his tools of the game. I about laughed in his face... though remained polite. I gave him some friendly and subtle reminders before he tore off down the road, after stating his Goal before the sun went down in an hour. :( He didn't care about the caches.......only the numbers. I was glad I spoke up about how much we Mainers love our caches, and our ethical/careful practices on All caches, not just the micro/nanos in the city. ;) Reminders can be a wonderful thing......... though delivery often makes the difference of how well it's received, if at all.

brdad
09-04-2009, 08:19 PM
Again, it seems I have assisted in pushing this thread away from cache permission - Sorry, Hollora. I have created a new thread titled What makes an irresponsible cacher / cache hider? (http://www.geocachingmaine.org/forum/showthread.php?p=56827) in hopes this part of the discussion can be moved over there and this one can be brought back to cache permission, which is an important topic IMO.

squirrelcache
09-04-2009, 09:46 PM
ooops......ty for the reminder. And thank you for creating what could be a fun and interesting thread ;)

hollora
09-04-2009, 10:10 PM
ooops......ty for the reminder. And thank you for creating what could be a fun and interesting thread ;)

Yup - this one and the other one!

eebee
09-06-2009, 09:18 AM
And before anyone gets their Granny Panties in a giant wadd......

They WERE from Canada and I don't know their names or I wouldn't have used the term Canadian Cachers, AND , I am not acusing Any Canadian Cachers of Anything. I'm just referencing to the " Rush and Trample" approach we saw that day. I have never seen it before or again.!!

Opalsns

No accusations may have been intended, but I still find that mildly offensive. I'm sorry you had such a negative experience with other cachers regardless of where they were from. (Why was it even necessary to note their nationality if your point was solely around the "rush and trample" approach?)

Opalsns
09-06-2009, 09:32 AM
No accusations may have been intended, but I still find that mildly offensive. I'm sorry you had such a negative experience with other cachers regardless of where they were from. (Why was it even necessary to note their nationality if your point was solely around the "rush and trample" approach?)

Because They were from Canada !!!!!!!!!

Haffy
09-06-2009, 09:58 AM
If I were from Canada as Eebee is, I would have felt the same way.

brdad
09-06-2009, 10:12 AM
This still has little to do with permissions, but...

While being from Canada has no bearing at all on their actions, it does tell us something. It tells us that there are cachers who can be irresponsible or ignorant even when they are away from home. In most situations people behave better when they are in an unfamiliar area, so I would hate to see how these folks might cache in their own neighborhood, regardless of what state or country it is in.

TRF
09-06-2009, 10:20 AM
No accusations may have been intended, but I still find that mildly offensive. I'm sorry you had such a negative experience with other cachers regardless of where they were from. (Why was it even necessary to note their nationality if your point was solely around the "rush and trample" approach?)

This reminds me of recent news headlines, Hispanic woman calls in to police that a black man appears to be breaking into a home.

The facts; she is hispanic and the male in question is black. It appeared to the hispanic woman that the man was forcing his way into a home. It had nothing to due with color, race, gender and or religion yet people will take something at face value and spin it to suit their own needs.

Opalsn stated the facts in their post, not a racial slur, a stereotype or anything else. If I said I went to a car accident involving a canadian, I would be stating facts not making a comment about canadian drivers.

I'm thinking people that take offense to hearing facts need to modify their thinking.

squirrelcache
09-06-2009, 08:18 PM
It often helps to know someone's intentions, mode of operation, way of handling issues, ability to express themself clearly...or in a peaceful manner. QTIP ;)

Hondohawk
10-23-2009, 08:06 AM
I wonder how many caches would not have been placed and enjoyed by the masses if land owner permission had NOT been given or even tried to obtain?? !! I always try to get permission but sometimes I personally feel that places I have caches didn't need approval from anyone but the Publishers of our caches. (public) But I believe there would be a whole lot less caches in areas when land owner permission is "required" on our forms. I am still new at this and some of my thoughts and ideas have disturbed many. So, I guess i will just go with the flow and do what everyone else does. What ever that may be !... I would hate to think a neat new cache area and location that's really cool would have to be passed upon because we are not able to figure out or even find the land owner...I think the " NO TRESPASSING " signs say it all. No sign, fair game.

So I blabbed my thought...

Cache On !

Waterski
10-23-2009, 08:57 AM
I guess the underlying thought for me would be...how would I like it if some stranger decided to bring many people from all around the world to my land and not even be considerate about my permisson, and having them tromph all over my moss, woods, or whatever.( It is at least a little comforting to hear about the injury suit laws that Dubord talked about on another thread. ) What might not look like anything particularly special to you might be to the landowner. We need to take a walk on the high side to keep this game respectable, don't you think? If its not a guardrail, someone probably needs to approve the placement I would think.

Waterski
10-23-2009, 09:57 AM
Looking back over the past posts now, I notice that even guard rail caches(at the waterfront) are sometimes not welcomed.

hollora
10-23-2009, 01:20 PM
Looking back over the past posts now, I notice that even guard rail caches(at the waterfront) are sometimes not welcomed.

That is true, for example, the Bangor Harbormaster has clearly stated he wants no caches on the Bangor waterfront (public land).

brdad
10-23-2009, 03:18 PM
If its not a guardrail, someone probably needs to approve the placement I would think.

This is exactly what I see. It's is better to assume you are not allowed to place without permission than to assume you are allowed.

You can check with nearly any town office to find who owns most land easily. Contacting them may be another story...

dubord207
10-23-2009, 07:54 PM
Right you are brdad! If there's anything a town knows, it's where to find you to send the tax bill! I have requested permission to place caches on two islands where I live and sent letters to the addresses the town provided. Both landowners promptly responded...both negative, but the moral of the story is it's easy to find the lawful owner of any property if you make the effort!