View Full Version : Using log length to determine quality...



brdad
01-23-2010, 10:58 PM
Some cachers think that the length of cache logs in a cache help determine the quality of a cache. I can see where that makes some sense, perhaps it's more how good (or bad) a time the person had at the cache than the actual quality. If nothing more, it's a testament to how much the finders had to say about the cache for whatever reason.

Anyway, here is a list of the top 20 caches which have at least 5 found logs and which have the the longest average log lengths listed from #1 to #20. I am sure I do not have all logs in my database, so the accuracy is not 100%. Some good reading in many of them just the same!

Maine’s Alphanumeric Cache Challenge (http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?guid=09d31356-ac93-49ac-840d-4d8d461906fb) (GC1JJ38) by Northwoods Explorer (http://www.geocaching.com/profile/?id=381878) (4.5/4.5)
Maine's DeLorme Challenge (http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?guid=0b270722-4e03-4ade-a56b-1d7f61d1ddb7) (GCW8N6) by Team Teebow (Team2hunt) (http://www.geocaching.com/profile/?id=314443) (5/5)
Maine's Adventure Challenge (http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?guid=9538f1ae-c65a-415f-8e80-3710ae0f11c3) (GC1VWN8) by Northwoods Explorer (http://www.geocaching.com/profile/?id=381878) (5/5)
WEREWOLF! (http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?guid=0639c3b4-e221-4638-9485-d2b6651b2012) (GC1QV1H) by Mapachi (http://www.geocaching.com/profile/?id=1383108) (2.5/3.5)
Molechunkamunk: Cranberry Cove (http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?guid=edace56a-6d97-4b44-9123-7a3fcdac0468) (GCWEBK) by paddlehikers (http://www.geocaching.com/profile/?id=434407) (2.5/5)
Molechunkamunk: Aziscoos Mt. (http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?guid=a4413e6e-0cfd-4067-bb82-37b04a916f8e) (GCXJ2Y) by paddlehikers (http://www.geocaching.com/profile/?id=434407) (1/4)
PINOCCHIO'S CURSE" (http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?guid=4d23d207-c5c9-4d52-b2e6-7677b55883c7) (GCZHGY) by hoamdezinahs (http://www.geocaching.com/profile/?id=362472) (5/1.5)
Sounds Easy To Me (http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?guid=9bcafb9f-f8e6-4610-a96f-1ccf9d525b99) (GC1VFWZ) by brdad (http://www.geocaching.com/profile/?id=61905) (3.5/3)
Jim's Last Cache (http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?guid=10af0180-e17a-424f-a20f-4baf098726ee) (GC1JJHY) by NorthCumberMouth Cachers (http://www.geocaching.com/profile/?id=66924) (2/3.5)
Debsconeag Ice Cave (http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?guid=e271a9b9-c965-4a15-a356-ff41554d2964) (GC108Y2) by Northwoods Explorer (http://www.geocaching.com/profile/?id=381878) (4/4)
Norton Farm Overlook (http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?guid=e255458f-4574-44df-9c1f-44621cfab673) (GCKQ30) by Ravengal (http://www.geocaching.com/profile/?id=45349) (1/4)
Beyond the grave (http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?guid=1e5ae8da-0c32-4ff3-a809-947f6c1a0b56) (GC16Z0F) by 0din (http://www.geocaching.com/profile/?id=837260) (2/3.5)
Portland Freedom Trail (http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?guid=ba0f7fb4-5ef9-4a21-9a00-dd6774576eef) (GC1A9Y0) by kayakerinme (http://www.geocaching.com/profile/?id=449087) (1/1)
Halfmile (http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?guid=1812ccd4-e4b1-4324-ad07-cd23bf0191bc) (GCH21C) by brdad (http://www.geocaching.com/profile/?id=61905) (3/3.5)
Border Frontier (http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?guid=d7789468-99fa-4ffa-bd5e-77b3a86e495e) (GCGA4T) by Liasis et al. (http://www.geocaching.com/profile/?id=72953) (4/4)
Jeremiah Was a Bullfrog (http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?guid=b9295c03-d0c4-4b08-a9d8-9f548d539ec6) (GC1WRXQ) by Three Dog Night (http://www.geocaching.com/profile/?id=138162) (2/5)
The Agonizer (http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?guid=0e4b50a7-d615-4579-bd62-09f863f251bb) (GC203TB) by Law1646 (http://www.geocaching.com/profile/?id=1440428) (4.5/2.5)
Bessies Tale (http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?guid=2aa1958c-d9fd-48bf-ad8d-90cd1b93b4bf) (GCW700) by LaughingTerry (http://www.geocaching.com/profile/?id=310400) (1/1.5)
Hothole Pond Cache (http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?guid=04e1e6ef-2a15-4659-ba44-3c814ac38255) (GC13QYB) by Groleau (http://www.geocaching.com/profile/?id=588789) (2.5/5)
Deathwish # 2 (http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?guid=bf1540e1-5b4d-48b3-8d29-a27d12b566a7) (GCXA1Q) by vicbiker (http://www.geocaching.com/profile/?id=620387) (2/4)

cano
01-24-2010, 11:21 AM
Some cachers think that the length of cache logs in a cache help determine the quality of a cache. I can see where that makes some sense, perhaps it's more how good (or bad) a time the person had at the cache than the actual quality. If nothing more, it's a testament to how much the finders had to say about the cache for whatever reason.

Anyway, here is a list of the top 20 caches which have at least 5 found logs and which have the the longest average log lengths listed from #1 to #20. I am sure I do not have all logs in my database, so the accuracy is not 100%. Some good reading in many of them just the same!

Maine’s Alphanumeric Cache Challenge (http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?guid=09d31356-ac93-49ac-840d-4d8d461906fb) (GC1JJ38) by Northwoods Explorer (http://www.geocaching.com/profile/?id=381878) (4.5/4.5)
Maine's DeLorme Challenge (http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?guid=0b270722-4e03-4ade-a56b-1d7f61d1ddb7) (GCW8N6) by Team Teebow (Team2hunt) (http://www.geocaching.com/profile/?id=314443) (5/5)
Maine's Adventure Challenge (http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?guid=9538f1ae-c65a-415f-8e80-3710ae0f11c3) (GC1VWN8) by Northwoods Explorer (http://www.geocaching.com/profile/?id=381878) (5/5)
WEREWOLF! (http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?guid=0639c3b4-e221-4638-9485-d2b6651b2012) (GC1QV1H) by Mapachi (http://www.geocaching.com/profile/?id=1383108) (2.5/3.5)
Molechunkamunk: Cranberry Cove (http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?guid=edace56a-6d97-4b44-9123-7a3fcdac0468) (GCWEBK) by paddlehikers (http://www.geocaching.com/profile/?id=434407) (2.5/5)
Molechunkamunk: Aziscoos Mt. (http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?guid=a4413e6e-0cfd-4067-bb82-37b04a916f8e) (GCXJ2Y) by paddlehikers (http://www.geocaching.com/profile/?id=434407) (1/4)
PINOCCHIO'S CURSE" (http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?guid=4d23d207-c5c9-4d52-b2e6-7677b55883c7) (GCZHGY) by hoamdezinahs (http://www.geocaching.com/profile/?id=362472) (5/1.5)
Sounds Easy To Me (http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?guid=9bcafb9f-f8e6-4610-a96f-1ccf9d525b99) (GC1VFWZ) by brdad (http://www.geocaching.com/profile/?id=61905) (3.5/3)
Jim's Last Cache (http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?guid=10af0180-e17a-424f-a20f-4baf098726ee) (GC1JJHY) by NorthCumberMouth Cachers (http://www.geocaching.com/profile/?id=66924) (2/3.5)
Debsconeag Ice Cave (http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?guid=e271a9b9-c965-4a15-a356-ff41554d2964) (GC108Y2) by Northwoods Explorer (http://www.geocaching.com/profile/?id=381878) (4/4)
Norton Farm Overlook (http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?guid=e255458f-4574-44df-9c1f-44621cfab673) (GCKQ30) by Ravengal (http://www.geocaching.com/profile/?id=45349) (1/4)
Beyond the grave (http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?guid=1e5ae8da-0c32-4ff3-a809-947f6c1a0b56) (GC16Z0F) by 0din (http://www.geocaching.com/profile/?id=837260) (2/3.5)
Portland Freedom Trail (http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?guid=ba0f7fb4-5ef9-4a21-9a00-dd6774576eef) (GC1A9Y0) by kayakerinme (http://www.geocaching.com/profile/?id=449087) (1/1)
Halfmile (http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?guid=1812ccd4-e4b1-4324-ad07-cd23bf0191bc) (GCH21C) by brdad (http://www.geocaching.com/profile/?id=61905) (3/3.5)
Border Frontier (http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?guid=d7789468-99fa-4ffa-bd5e-77b3a86e495e) (GCGA4T) by Liasis et al. (http://www.geocaching.com/profile/?id=72953) (4/4)
Jeremiah Was a Bullfrog (http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?guid=b9295c03-d0c4-4b08-a9d8-9f548d539ec6) (GC1WRXQ) by Three Dog Night (http://www.geocaching.com/profile/?id=138162) (2/5)
The Agonizer (http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?guid=0e4b50a7-d615-4579-bd62-09f863f251bb) (GC203TB) by Law1646 (http://www.geocaching.com/profile/?id=1440428) (4.5/2.5)
Bessies Tale (http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?guid=2aa1958c-d9fd-48bf-ad8d-90cd1b93b4bf) (GCW700) by LaughingTerry (http://www.geocaching.com/profile/?id=310400) (1/1.5)
Hothole Pond Cache (http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?guid=04e1e6ef-2a15-4659-ba44-3c814ac38255) (GC13QYB) by Groleau (http://www.geocaching.com/profile/?id=588789) (2.5/5)
Deathwish # 2 (http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?guid=bf1540e1-5b4d-48b3-8d29-a27d12b566a7) (GCXA1Q) by vicbiker (http://www.geocaching.com/profile/?id=620387) (2/4)

Maybe those caches are just attracting people who tend to write longer logs :)
You should calculate it different way. First compute average log length for every user and then scale every cache log relatively to that user.

WhereRWe?
01-24-2010, 12:09 PM
You should calculate it different way. First compute average log length for every user and then scale every cache log relatively to that user.

Yeah - doing this would support my position on writing logs. LOL!

Gob-ler
01-24-2010, 01:48 PM
There are several of those listed that require/encourage longer logs. The ones that list caches that have been done to complete a requirement and the ones that are such that a long elaboration is required (there are three or four on the list that fit that category) are hardly the types of logs your talking about.

I do think what you say has merit, but one needs to be careful about what caused the large log to be written. It it was a log that came about because it was indeed a memorable cache experience that actually happen then I say Great! My Delorme Challenge log is one like that. It is my longest log to date and most certainly my most memorable cache.

brdad
01-24-2010, 02:38 PM
You should calculate it different way. First compute average log length for every user and then scale every cache log relatively to that user.

Yes, that would be a better way to calculate it. But for that to be effective, that would make it even more important to have all of the cache logs. Unfortunately, there is currently no easy way to do that without violating gc.com's terms. In fact, there have been several accounts warned and/or temporarily banned recently for mining too much data from the site.


There are several of those listed that require/encourage longer logs. The ones that list caches that have been done to complete a requirement and the ones that are such that a long elaboration is required (there are three or four on the list that fit that category) are hardly the types of logs your talking about.

Agreed, though many of the challenge caches inspire us to write more than we typically would. One would definitely not want to use log length alone to determine the quality of a cache. Although, a cache of lower quality (Or, less interesting stuff about the area or cache to talk about) would probably rarely produce long logs - Though I would not depend on that, either, which explains my not posting those that had the shortest logs.

Haffy
01-25-2010, 12:36 PM
Liars caches seem to contain the longest logs as they encourage you to write something that is special or funny or has nothing to do with the cache hide...lol

brdad
01-25-2010, 01:44 PM
Liars caches seem to contain the longest logs as they encourage you to write something that is special or funny or has nothing to do with the cache hide...lol

That is a good point as well.

It would be interesting to know there are any key words or phrases that appear in logs where the finder has enjoyed finding it... "yet another spot I would not have known about if not for caching" or variations of it is probably a good phrase, but I have corrupted that system a few times by posting "Yet another guardrail I would not have known about if not for caching". :p

"If not for caching" appears in cache logs of 37 different caches in my database. Again, I do not begin to have every log - wish I did!

cano
01-25-2010, 03:33 PM
That is a good point as well.

It would be interesting to know there are any key words or phrases that appear in logs where the finder has enjoyed finding it... "yet another spot I would not have known about if not for caching" or variations of it is probably a good phrase, but I have corrupted that system a few times by posting "Yet another guardrail I would not have known about if not for caching". :p

"If not for caching" appears in cache logs of 37 different caches in my database. Again, I do not begin to have every log - wish I did!

You can use Bayesian Inference for this purpose, it works like magic
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bayesian_inference

:)

brdad
01-25-2010, 03:56 PM
You can use Bayesian Inference for this purpose, it works like magic :)

If I thought for a minute a person could determine how good a time he would have at a given cache by the logs, I might be inclined to try to understand that.

I'm kind of glad I'm convinced you can't determine it that way!

Gob-ler
01-25-2010, 05:41 PM
Bay What? That's a new one on me.

TRF
01-25-2010, 05:52 PM
99.99% accurate as applied to 100,000,000 still gives a fairly large inaccuracy as applied to individuals that would fall outside the "accurate" requirement.

What about logs that are negative and wordy. Some of the longest logs I've read are negative comments regarding a cachers experience with a cache. I remember a log in recent history that was posted on these forums that was easily 200 words and not much of it favorable. I don't remember the specifics or the cache but I think CARoper.... posted it here for all of us to see. I searched but couldn't come up with it.

dubord207
01-25-2010, 06:20 PM
Di and I had an "unscheduled" day off today. When I headed out up the 2 mile long private road that is in effect our "driveway" it was so slick my 4WD truck wasn't going to make it so we stayed home.

I looked at my logs, not all 3000 of them and in spite of being an attorney (and prone to verbostity as a result of my training), it's quite clear that our favorite caches got the longest logs and some of the LPC's and GRC's barely got 10 letters! I'm proud to say that I think I have only published 2 negative logs, both short and sweet.

In looking at logs on my caches, the ones requiring the most effort to get to seem to get the longer logs. The 3 GRC's I have placed get the least, but more then a lot of other like this as they were placed in scenic spots.

As far as negative logs, why do it? Some folks go out and place lame caches because they have very limited caching experience. For these, I just give it the ol' "SL TFTC." ( no exclamation point either) Once the CO's come to the conclusion that their caches don't seem to elicit a great deal of enthusiasm, then maybe the light will go on. It is a learning experience and going negative just won't help.

We did 3 caches at Reid State Park yesterday and they all got a fair log by yours truly because these are good placements and were fun to get to on our snowshoes.

My dad always told me that if I didn't have something good to say about somebody then "don't say anything." I think that might work in this fun game we all enjoy.

WhereRWe?
01-25-2010, 06:27 PM
My dad always told me that if I didn't have something good to say about somebody then "don't say anything." I think that might work in this fun game we all enjoy.

There is ALWAYS a place for constructive criticism. :D:D

TeamHorwich
01-25-2010, 06:42 PM
Bayesian inference is statistical inference (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statistical_inference) in which evidence or observations are used to update or to newly infer the probability (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Probability) that a hypothesis may be true. The name "Bayesian" comes from the frequent use of Bayes' theorem (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bayes%27_theorem) in the inference process. Bayes' theorem was derived from the work of the Reverend Thomas Bayes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Bayes).[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bayesian_inference#cite_note-0)



from wikipedia...all clear now, huh?!?

brdad
01-25-2010, 06:50 PM
I remember a log in recent history that was posted on these forums that was easily 200 words and not much of it favorable

I am not sure which log you are referring to, but he did post a few that were quite lengthy by today's standards but which said very little about the cache itself which again is another reason for not relying on the log length - sometimes logs have little or nothing to do with the cache. But I do agree, a few of my unfavorable logs are longer than the cache deserved, but I had to state my case.



In looking at logs on my caches, the ones requiring the most effort to get to seem to get the longer logs. The 3 GRC's I have placed get the least, but more then a lot of other like this as they were placed in scenic spots

This makes sense. Even if you had to crawl through a mile of sewer pipe to get to a less than great cache, odds are the log will be longer just because of the time and effort spent to get there. A person can't pick up much information to write about if they were only at a cache site for 30 seconds.



As far as negative logs, why do it? Some folks go out and place lame caches because they have very limited caching experience. For these, I just give it the ol' "SL TFTC." ( no exclamation point either) Once the CO's come to the conclusion that their caches don't seem to elicit a great deal of enthusiasm, then maybe the light will go on. It is a learning experience and going negative just won't help.
....
My dad always told me that if I didn't have something good to say about somebody then "don't say anything." I think that might work in this fun game we all enjoy.

I see this slightly differently. I am all for being nice, but when you hide a cache I think you are providing a product and you take on the responsibilities of doing so. Just like cars, GPSrs, or ketchup, caches should get feedback in the form of good or not so good logs. If someone has a bad time at Old 470, I'd much rather hear why instead of just posting a TNLNSL log. From there, I have to decide if their argument has merit - I would interpret 'I hated Old 470 because I hate micros and it was rainy" differently than "I hated Old 470 because there is trash all over the area". At least in those two cases I can decide if the argument has merit or I can just pass the finder off as a micro hating nutjob.


Blah Blah Blah
Thanks! I understand it all now! :p

WhereRWe?
01-25-2010, 06:53 PM
If someone has a bad time at Old 470, I'd much rather hear why instead of just posting a TNLNSL log. From there, I have to decide if their argument has merit - I would interpret 'I hated Old 470 because I hate micros and it was rainy" differently than "I hated Old 470 because there is trash all over the area". At least in those two cases I can decide if the argument has merit or I can just pass the finder off as a micro hating nutjob.

Sheesh! Why are my ears burning?? ;);)

RULost2? and I often stop at the Waterville rail yard to watch the trains. We've become friendly with one of the "conductors", and had a nice chat with him about geocaching today. He said he's tried 5 caches, and didn't find any of them! LOL! I asked him if he'd tried "Old 470" yet, and he said no. But he also said that he retires in 5 weeks, and plans on doing some geocaching. I gave him one of our signature Maine Geocacher Permits, and invited him to visit us here.

Gob-ler
01-25-2010, 11:38 PM
Just like cars, GPSrs, or ketchup, .........

You had to go and mention ketchup! A long, long time ago when Kathy and I were first married, she sent me to the store to get some ketchup. No problem dear, and off I went. A while later I came back home with a bottle of Hunts and then I proceeded to hear that there would never be anything but good old Heinz in our house!

Believe me, I never made that mistake again!

brdad
01-26-2010, 08:14 AM
Sheesh! Why are my ears burning?? ;);)

RULost2? and I often stop at the Waterville rail yard to watch the trains. We've become friendly with one of the "conductors", and had a nice chat with him about geocaching today. He said he's tried 5 caches, and didn't find any of them! LOL! I asked him if he'd tried "Old 470" yet, and he said no. But he also said that he retires in 5 weeks, and plans on doing some geocaching. I gave him one of our signature Maine Geocacher Permits, and invited him to visit us here.

Wow, I thought if I added the "in the rain" section, no one would know who I was talking about! :D

They didn't say anything about why the no trespassing signs were on Old470 did they? I need to call/email the city soon and find out.

Haffy
01-27-2010, 03:03 PM
Apparently they have deemed the old train as being unsafe and don't want the liability of anyone being hurt until the "Old 470" can be made safe again. They have a charter membership going for people to donate money to get her back in shape but it is going to cost a lot.

Mapachi
01-28-2010, 08:56 PM
There are several of those listed that require/encourage longer logs. The ones that list caches that have been done to complete a requirement and the ones that are such that a long elaboration is required (there are three or four on the list that fit that category) are hardly the types of logs your talking about.

I do think what you say has merit, but one needs to be careful about what caused the large log to be written. It it was a log that came about because it was indeed a memorable cache experience that actually happen then I say Great! My Delorme Challenge log is one like that. It is my longest log to date and most certainly my most memorable cache.


Bessie's Tail (Laughing Terry).... I really enjoyed the concept of that cache. I enjoy writing lengthy logs at times and Bessie's Tail suited me. It encouraged me to make up a story about retrieving the cache.
When I was writing the cache description for my cache "WEREWOLF"; the cache Bessie's Tail was in the back of my mind. I tried to encourage cachers to write about their adventure with werewolves.
It turned out, the longest log had nothing to do with werewolves, but rather about the REAL events surrounding the journey to the cache.