View Full Version : Outrre-Frontiere



surfacewarrior
04-16-2012, 12:44 AM
OK .I will ask this question . doesn't it seem wrong that GC2D173 Outre-Frontiere who Geocaching.com list as " in Quebec, Canada " and can only be done from Quebec canada is listed as the most northern Geocache in the state of Maine? I am betting that if I or anyone tried to bushwack in to it from the US side of the border we would be picked up by the border patrol or the Mounties before we got anywhere near Ground Zero, In the US right?:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:Anyone up to maybe getting interogated by the Border patrol for this one later in the year, for a find without leaving the state?:cool::cool:

JustKev
04-16-2012, 03:23 AM
When viewd on the "larger map" you can zoom in until it shows the cache as being in Maine. All the logs are in French, however. Interesting.

brdad
04-16-2012, 06:33 AM
This cache perplexes me as well. Enough so I want to go there and find it to see for myself! I have sent the owner email a while back but never gotten a reply.

When I get my PQs for Maine, the caches are limited to those being listed in in Maine. When you publish a cache, the cache owner chooses the state. I don't know if the reviewer checks to see that the listed state looks correct or if we could be choosing Alaska or some other state and they would let it go (Got an answer, Tom?). Anyway, if the cache is real close to a border, a reviewer would likely have little reason to doubt the claim, and that's likely the case with Outre-Frontiere.

Outside of my regular PQs I get for the Maine stats, I routinely get caches which are within the polygons I have for the borders of Maine but not listed in Maine. Outre-Frontiere is one of those. I don't know for sure if it's really in Maine or Canada, but every map I have used shows it as being in Maine. Even the description says he thinks it's in Maine. Regardless of whether you have to go through Canada to get there, if it's inside the Maine border personally I would consider it a Maine cache.

I'd like to know more about this cache and if it truly is not in Maine, I will remove it from the stats permanently.

Link for anyone wanting to check it out. Outre-Frontière (http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?guid=3fa4adc8-80d4-4292-adb3-16c647794d14)(Traditional)(Regular) (GC2D173) by luigijambone, NB Mc****, dpTony, clouddancing, MrS (http://www.geocaching.com/profile/?id=3429084) (1.5/2)

http://bytethebullet.com/geocaching/fora/Outre.PNG (http://bytethebullet.com/geocaching/fora/Outre.PNG)

surfacewarrior
04-16-2012, 07:45 PM
funny how those two buildings appear to be on the maine side. I wonder if any property tax's are being collected by the state of maine. Maybe i need to stop here and just start working on a passport to go get this one.

brdad
04-16-2012, 08:19 PM
From what I see, it's only a section of road in Canada you have to use to get there. According to Google maps, the border crossing is there but I don't see anything on the aerial.

Ekidokai
04-16-2012, 09:30 PM
Don't get any funny ideas. There are cameras and sensors. They are watching you.

CARoperPhotography
04-16-2012, 10:15 PM
Have any of you considered posting a note on the cache listing (or contacting the CO.... I'd prefer a note because more would see it, and be able to answer) inquiring about how to access this cache? From studying the Google maps imagery and then again in TOPO software, the cache IS on Maine soil. We can't let these Canadian Frenchies get away with this outrageous act of war! Okay... just kidding. But I think this cache CAN be accessed without going into Canada. Look at this Estcourt Road? Notice there is a small landing strip as well nearby several miles to the ESE? I think if you didn't want to cross into Canada to prove a point, you could do it with some hiking involved. I'm game. Anyone else? I am serious actually...

On a related note, from looking at the boundry and the towns, notice how the International Fronteir runs down a street and there are some houses of the town on the US side and some homes on the Canadian side? Interesting.... I think this is the town that a few years ago, maybe 6 or 7 if I recall, a Canadian citizen crossed over the border one night with a gun in his truck to go to the store in the town which was on the US side. Anyone crossing was supposed to report to the customs house which was only open during daytime hours. He didn't because the place was closed and he got arrested for bringing a gun across the Frontier and brought up on US Federal charges... I am going to find the story....

CARoperPhotography
04-16-2012, 10:21 PM
Yep, this is the spot that this particular arrest happened back in 2002. It was big news at the time:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/795053/posts

What do ya'all think? :cool:

CARoperPhotography
04-16-2012, 10:26 PM
@Surfacewarrior. I am up for the bushwhack to prove that it can be done from the U.S. side

Send me a PM or a message from my GC.profile please. Let's do this!

CARoperPhotography
04-16-2012, 10:59 PM
This is what the English translation of the cache listing says..... I did it in Google Translate...... obviously, it is a bit off.... or is the CO speaking in a sort of code? Also the French that they speak in Quebec, especially rural Quebec is a very old world French. I have a friend who is from Aesbestos, PQ (Yes, where they mine the dreaded aesbestos insulation.... look at it on Google Maps, you'll see the giant pit mine in the center of town!) and she has the strong old world French accent and her French, as she reminds me is the REAL French, not what they speak in Paris....

Translation:

"According to our calculations, the cache would be in the United States.
Against us by a customs official said the carrier was hiding abroad.

This is my first cache

Enjoy the park
Assisez on Marie-Mai is made ​​for that

Happy hunting"

brdad
04-17-2012, 06:30 AM
Have any of you considered posting a note on the cache listing (or contacting the CO.... I'd prefer a note because more would see it, and be able to answer) inquiring about how to access this cache?

I sent an email with a few questions, more so about why it wasn't listed as in Maine if he thought it was in Maine, but got no reply. I didn't bother top post a note on the cache page as I didn't want to stir anything up, it's not that important. I'm guessing since the CO is in Canada he may not be the best authority to question about how to get there from the US. At least one log makes it sound like they were concerned they would have border issues getting to the cache from Canada.

I translated as well and do not fully understand the "Against us by a customs official said the carrier was hiding abroad" part.

I have no doubt if the cache is in Maine (as I am confident it is) that anyone can get there without going into Canada. It may take some bushwhacking and there appears to be a small stream to cross, and some woods and fields. One question is whether you could drive there without having issues with customs. The second question is whether it's worth the risk to bushwhack, since if someone saw you and reported it, you could get in a mess with customs without even crossing the border. We got stopped once and questioned for an hour after turning around 200 feet before crossing the border in Coburn Gore. It may not be right, but if they can corrupt your day for turning around 200 feet from the border, imagine what they might do for bushwhacking behind people's houses going toward the border...

Ekidokai
04-17-2012, 11:39 AM
Why not just drive up to the boarder crossing and follow the road and go find the cache? Many people cross the boarder everyday.

It's not a forging country after all.

CARoperPhotography
04-17-2012, 12:14 PM
I just left a note on the cache page.

tat
04-17-2012, 12:40 PM
Here's a link that may help: http://www.internationalboundarycommission.org/products.html#maps

brdad
04-17-2012, 02:27 PM
Why not just drive up to the boarder crossing and follow the road and go find the cache? Many people cross the boarder everyday.

That is the most sensible approach.

brdad
04-17-2012, 03:13 PM
Here's a link that may help: http://www.internationalboundarycommission.org/products.html#maps

I loaded it to verify, the data is consistent with the data I use for the Maine Town polygons which I acquired from the USGS and also with Google Maps. I don't think there is much doubt the cache is within Maine borders.

CARoperPhotography
04-17-2012, 06:58 PM
Wow? A "Sensible" approach from Ekidokai? :eek: Just kidding Mike.....

I kind of like the idea of bushwhacking to the cache just to prove it is accessible from Maine. Maybe make it into a Geocaching Event?!?!

TAT you can join us and make an official announcement as MainePublisher that the cache IS in Maine, we can all sign the log, take some photos, drink a few beers and be off....

I myself don't have a renewed passport. Havent had a need for it lately so I'd rather bushwhack.... then again, the border patrol is only on duty for like 8 hours a day, we could always go across when they aren't there....?

brdad
04-17-2012, 07:18 PM
Go ahead, I'm too old to take the risk. Plus, I have an unused passport.

CARoperPhotography
04-17-2012, 07:25 PM
Go ahead, I'm too old to take the risk. Plus, I have an unused passport.

Oh come on, this would be a great bonding experience for the two of us! And I thought you liked caches that you have to hike 10 miles to access??

Sabby
04-17-2012, 09:08 PM
I have been reading the posts with some interest. I will never get there but am going to put in my 2 cents.

I found it interesting to translate the logs of the finders and the cache owner. Owner says passport not required, a few of the finders say they stepped on US soil.

In google maps if you zoom way in and move the little man to the area it shows 4 photos of the area. 2 are of a pedestrian bridge across the river. US flag on one side Canadian flag on the other. I believe the cache is hidden under the bridge on a cross member and accessed from the US side.

If google maps is correct you can drive to 47 26.993 69 14.085, near the junction of Rocky Brook RD and Rue de la Fontaine, and be only about 0.8 miles from the cache. It appears like there is some kind of cut thru the woods there to relatively open fields.

Well thats my 2 cents.

brdad
04-17-2012, 09:40 PM
Oh come on, this would be a great bonding experience for the two of us! And I thought you liked caches that you have to hike 10 miles to access??

You can bond with Grégoire in the Canadian Prison. :)

Regarding my caching likes, I am often misunderstood. I like memorable caches. If it means hiking 10 miles, fine, if it means finding a neat waterfall 100 feet off the road, that is great too. I've actually done very few caches anywhere near 10 miles round trip (for one cache). Once we did kayak 12 miles round trip for a cache in a parking lot, however.

surfacewarrior
04-17-2012, 10:44 PM
I want to do this one but I think getting a passport just to keep from getting turned back after driving that far would be the best Idea. chad I will email you tomorrow, our computers here at work do not like GC.com for some reason and keep locking up. Maybe a camping Event in july WAY up north to give evryone a chance to get a good jumping off point. Heck while up there you might as well get Black river bridge. i did it last sept and liked the area.

CARoperPhotography
04-17-2012, 11:44 PM
You did Black River Bridge? You mean the Earthcache? Oh wait, just looked. Gotcha. I think we need to do the Black River Earthcache too! Never been logged as found and been around over two years!

I'm not renewing my passport just for a GeoCache though. Maybe the ******* in me wants to challenge the Border Patrol into being pricks with me. I'm gonna get this cache without crossing into Canada. You wait and see. And if the Federale's want to question me for two hours as to why I am bushwhacking, I'll use my usual line "am I being detained?" and try to walk off, and if they say "yes", I say "what crime am I suspected of comiting?"

CARoperPhotography
04-18-2012, 12:32 AM
You can bond with Grégoire in the Canadian Prison. :)

Regarding my caching likes, I am often misunderstood. I like memorable caches. If it means hiking 10 miles, fine, if it means finding a neat waterfall 100 feet off the road, that is great too. I've actually done very few caches anywhere near 10 miles round trip (for one cache). Once we did kayak 12 miles round trip for a cache in a parking lot, however.

I like memorable caches too, and this adventure would be quite memorable, regardless of getting to bond with Gregorie in a Canadian Prison.... don't they serve Molson Golden on tap in Canuk jails though?

Seriously though, I don't think ending up in prison is much of an issue. I don't plan on carrying a weapon if I actually may have to cross the border.

I would like to inquire to TAT though, how this cache ended up being listed in Quebec, and not Maine? A few times, as TAT can attest to, I have accidently written up a cache listing on a cache I have placed outside of Maine in another state, and forgotten to select that state on the listing page, and it has defaulted to Maine. TAT in his caped crusader outfit as MainePublisher has kindly written me a note and said he is passing along the listing to the proper reviewer for the proper state, which I have greatly appreciated. So why didn't the volunteer publisher in this case, do this, and pass it off to MainePubisher for review, or tell the prospective cache owner (by the way, have you seen the cache owner's page? he has a nice baseball bat in his profile photo.... reminds me of "The Jew Bear" from the movie Inglorious Bastards http://img.geocaching.com/user/large/5dbe5ac3-eeac-4097-8b35-222d74cd04f0.jpg ) that his cache is actually in Maine....of THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, and not lowly Canada, and so forth? It's quite obvious that this cache is in the U.S. So how do we go about getting this thing listed PROPERLY in Maine, and not in PQ?!!?!?!?!?!?!?!

surfacewarrior
04-18-2012, 03:27 AM
I have been reading the posts with some interest. I will never get there but am going to put in my 2 cents.

I found it interesting to translate the logs of the finders and the cache owner. Owner says passport not required, a few of the finders say they stepped on US soil.

In google maps if you zoom way in and move the little man to the area it shows 4 photos of the area. 2 are of a pedestrian bridge across the river. US flag on one side Canadian flag on the other. I believe the cache is hidden under the bridge on a cross member and accessed from the US side.

If google maps is correct you can drive to 47 26.993 69 14.085, near the junction of Rocky Brook RD and Rue de la Fontaine, and be only about 0.8 miles from the cache. It appears like there is some kind of cut thru the woods there to relatively open fields.

Well thats my 2 cents.

My first thought was OK we do not need to leave the state to get there,BUT , after a little thinking about this a couple of things come to mind, Owner is in Canada he did not need a passport to place it but for us to get to it we might have to go to canada. if it's a big deal to "step on US soil" then they were expecting to be in Canada the complete time. ST- I think maybe parking at the US Customs office and walking the last 400 ft in peoples backyards might be the wayto Bushwack in , However the guy in the article you linked might still be working there and he sounds like, OK I'll say it, a Serious tool. sorry had to go there. and looking for a hidden container on a bridge at a border crossing might be enough to get us put on a no fly list, and I might want ot take a trip some day.

CARoperPhotography
04-18-2012, 12:06 PM
I'll have to judge the guy's worthiness to be labeled with such a pithy moniker. It takes one to know one!

CARoperPhotography
04-18-2012, 02:04 PM
So, I have done some more research on this topic. It appears that the town of Estcourt Station, Maine ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estcourt_Station,_Maine) is not the only one on the U.S./Canadian border which seems to have border issues which have not officially been resolved. Like some other documented instances, this town is odd because it utilizes Canadian utilities, phone number exchanges, etc all the while being on U.S. soil. I guess it makes sense, but I wonder where the law would lie and stand if someone was to, as we have discussed, never cross into Canada and make a hike to the cache through the woods and fields on the U.S. side. I can't imagine a Canadian Mountie being able to arrest me or detain me on the U.S. side, as that would be an international incident worthy of media attention. Believe me, I am intrigued and more than willing to try this.

The town of Hyder, Alaska is another one of these border towns with dubious border restrictions. It is located at the bottom of the Alaska Pan Handle and also received it's utilities from Canada, in this case British Columbia. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyder,_Alaska)

In Hyder there is a cache Hyder Seek--Boundary Seeker GC30PJP (http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?wp=GC30PJP). This one IS in Alaska, and is properly listed in Alaska on Geocaching.com even though it is very very very close to the border.

Then you can look at Standstead, PQ /Vermont (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanstead,_Quebec_(city) ) This one is probably the largest of the towns that straddles the border. I-91 crosses into Canada here. There is a cache called The Valentine & Collins Line GCMC5V (http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?wp=GCMC5V ) which is a multi and although it appears to be right on the border, it is actually IN Quebec, and IS properly listed as being in Quebec.

I guess I just find it odd that in these two other instances, the caches in these two towns on the border, are in fact properly listed as being in the correct country, yet why is the one in Estcourt, Maine NOT listed as being in Maine, even though it is quite obvious that it is?

This cache has quickly consumed me....... I am itching for an expedition.... :confused:

CARoperPhotography
04-18-2012, 02:54 PM
I just found the Quebec equivalent to GeocachingMaine.org and have joined their forum. I posted about this topic just now at :

http://forum.geocaching-qc.com/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=12507

I am sure many of you are dreading the fact that I, SeriousTool am now representing GeocachingMaine.org internationally. I'll do my best with my diplomacy! ;-)

CARoperPhotography
04-18-2012, 07:30 PM
So, Marcipanek and I are probably going to try to do this cache next week. We are in the preliminary planning stages. After some research, we've concluded that this is probably the best way to get access to the cache since we don't know French:


http://youtu.be/yMyQJAuiYSw

surfacewarrior
04-18-2012, 07:40 PM
Actually called Borderpatrol this afternoon. they transfered me to the main office for that region (fort kent) and the agent said all you would need to get across and back if you don't have a passport is your birth certificate. I ask about walking in completely on the US side and he said I would be seen and stopped. With everything going on where I work and things here at home I am thinking about giving this a shot in July. The border patrol actually suggested crossing at fort kent and then doing a quick run up on pavede roads with a lot less miledge and time spent. Looking into both ways.

surfacewarrior
04-18-2012, 07:41 PM
if any one wants to call the borderpatrol up that way their number is (207) 834-5255.

CARoperPhotography
04-18-2012, 07:54 PM
SO you don't need a passport? Just a birth certificate? That is bizarre! SInce when?

CARoperPhotography
04-18-2012, 07:55 PM
So they said that if you tried to walk/bushwhack you'd be seen and stopped? For what crime? Weird. Have I mentioned my disdain for the Government?

surfacewarrior
04-19-2012, 08:23 AM
Try explaining our hobby to a "parinoid- government security border patrol officer" I thought , just a birth certificate ,, was a thing of the past but that's what he said. He mentioned camera's and eletronic devices that would "detect" anything in the area. Do not get me started on Imigration, As a US citizen they would probably throw us in jail and take away our GPSr's just to set an example to other Geocacher's who want to sign log's in tupperware containers hidden in the wood's. Would we be able to do this game if the cold war was still going on?

CARoperPhotography
04-19-2012, 08:30 AM
Try explaining our hobby to a "parinoid- government security border patrol officer" I thought , just a birth certificate ,, was a thing of the past but that's what he said. He mentioned camera's and eletronic devices that would "detect" anything in the area. Do not get me started on Imigration, As a US citizen they would probably throw us in jail and take away our GPSr's just to set an example to other Geocacher's who want to sign log's in tupperware containers hidden in the wood's. Would we be able to do this game if the cold war was still going on?

Well, the border was much more open during the Cold War. The "War on Terrorism" has given our government an excuse through the PATRIOT ACT and other legislation to clamp down the border and the rights of U.S. Citizens. Wasn't it nice having a well defined enemy, in communism and the Soviet Union??

CARoperPhotography
04-19-2012, 10:12 AM
Try explaining our hobby to a "parinoid- government security border patrol officer" I thought , just a birth certificate ,, was a thing of the past but that's what he said. He mentioned camera's and eletronic devices that would "detect" anything in the area. Do not get me started on Imigration, As a US citizen they would probably throw us in jail and take away our GPSr's just to set an example to other Geocacher's who want to sign log's in tupperware containers hidden in the wood's. Would we be able to do this game if the cold war was still going on?

Oh and by the way, your description of "paranoid-government security border patrol officer".....? OK..... these border patrol officers along with 95% of Law Enforcement officers at local, state and Federal level although they have sworn allegiance to the U.S. and to follow the Constitution, to uphold and defend..... frankly, they are not doing so. The regulations that they enforce, and if by detaining me bushwhacking to a Geocache ON U.S. soil without crossing the border, is UN-CONSTITUTIONAL. However, as is true with most Law Enforcement officers, intelligence, free thinking, and knowledge of the Constitution are not why they have the job they have.

JustKev
04-19-2012, 07:15 PM
I thought this was geocaching and not "bash your local law enforcement officer"?

brdad
04-19-2012, 09:05 PM
Yes, we should keep the political aspect to a minimum.

I'd still like to get the cache some day.

CARoperPhotography
04-20-2012, 01:00 AM
I thought this was geocaching and not "bash your local law enforcement officer"?


I'm not bashing my local law enforcement officer. I am bashing Federal Law Enforcement officers. Unless an officer is an Oath Keeper ( http://oathkeepers.org/oath/ ), they will get bashed. Especially when a Border Patrol officer states according to Surfacewarrior, that " I ask about walking in completely on the US side and he said I would be seen and stopped." That is a pretty ballsy thing for a cop to say, considering they would need to have suspicion that a crime has bee committed and last time I checked, walking on one side of a border is not a crime, or even probable cause.

CARoperPhotography
04-20-2012, 01:01 AM
Yes, we should keep the political aspect to a minimum.

I'd still like to get the cache some day.

As far as political aspect, unfortunately the international aspect of this cache, and the border issues at hand in finding this cache bring up some very interesting legal and as a result, political issues.

Mainiac1957
04-20-2012, 05:25 AM
I myself would certainly like to go after that cache. But I would more than likely go through Ft Kent to get it. The advantage of having a valid passport. I do however agree with you that having the border patrol detain you for walking "near" the border would be a huge violation of my civil rights as a US citizen. I am by no means a political rabbel-rouser, but I am also not a fan of undo process. But that is just my opinion. :cool:

JustKev
04-20-2012, 06:42 AM
I'm not saying that it wouldn't be offensive to me to be detained for NOT crossing the border while I was just going after a geocache. I'm saying a blanket bashing of the border patrol for doing their job is out of line. In today's world, where terrorism has become more prevalent, what's wrong with taking a few extra precautions when approaching the border to find a geocache? Why can't we look at it as the Border Patrol has a difficult job to do and why do we, as Geocachers, have to make it more difficult. Someone should just stop at the Border Patrol station and say, "This is what we're doing.". We've talked about approaching the state to see what we can do to be able to place more caches in state parks. If a group of cachers creates an issue over just one cache that's so close to the border how is that going to look when we try to place caches in the state parks? Even if you don't agree that the necessity exists for such stringent controls being in place at the border they are, in fact, in place. It's exactly the same premise as not agreeing that you should be required, by law, to wear your seatbelt. My personal feeling on seatbelts is that if you don't wear one you're a moron but there shouldn't be a law saying you have to wear one. I won't drive my car if someone in the car is unbuckled. It's either buckle up or get out and walk. If I couldn't get to the cache from the United States without disturbing the Border Patrol and I didn't have a passport the cache would simply go unfound by me.

UMainah
04-20-2012, 07:24 AM
I'm not bashing my local law enforcement officer. I am bashing Federal Law Enforcement officers. Unless an officer is an Oath Keeper ( http://oathkeepers.org/oath/ ), they will get bashed. Especially when a Border Patrol officer states according to Surfacewarrior, that " I ask about walking in completely on the US side and he said I would be seen and stopped." That is a pretty ballsy thing for a cop to say, considering they would need to have suspicion that a crime has bee committed and last time I checked, walking on one side of a border is not a crime, or even probable cause.

I would think that bushwacking through the woods, through people's back yards, to get to one of the few areas of the international border that's in limbo, carrying electronics and possibly a backpack, would be plenty suspicious. If I were caught doing something like that, I would hope someone would ask me a few questions as to what I was doing.

CARoperPhotography
04-20-2012, 11:45 AM
I'm not saying that it wouldn't be offensive to me to be detained for NOT crossing the border while I was just going after a geocache. I'm saying a blanket bashing of the border patrol for doing their job is out of line. In today's world, where terrorism has become more prevalent, what's wrong with taking a few extra precautions when approaching the border to find a geocache? Why can't we look at it as the Border Patrol has a difficult job to do and why do we, as Geocachers, have to make it more difficult. Someone should just stop at the Border Patrol station and say, "This is what we're doing.". We've talked about approaching the state to see what we can do to be able to place more caches in state parks. If a group of cachers creates an issue over just one cache that's so close to the border how is that going to look when we try to place caches in the state parks? Even if you don't agree that the necessity exists for such stringent controls being in place at the border they are, in fact, in place. It's exactly the same premise as not agreeing that you should be required, by law, to wear your seatbelt. My personal feeling on seatbelts is that if you don't wear one you're a moron but there shouldn't be a law saying you have to wear one. I won't drive my car if someone in the car is unbuckled. It's either buckle up or get out and walk. If I couldn't get to the cache from the United States without disturbing the Border Patrol and I didn't have a passport the cache would simply go unfound by me.

"Those who surrender freedom for security will not have, nor do they deserve, either one." — Thomas Jefferson

CARoperPhotography
04-20-2012, 11:49 AM
I would think that bushwacking through the woods, through people's back yards, to get to one of the few areas of the international border that's in limbo, carrying electronics and possibly a backpack, would be plenty suspicious. If I were caught doing something like that, I would hope someone would ask me a few questions as to what I was doing.

I hope you realize that EVERY Geocacher looks plenty suspicious wherever we are caching. I'd be more suspicious of someone at night stopped in an urban or suburban area, lurking around, than someone in the daytime in wilderness/rural Maine with backpacks and "electronic devices" (these electronic devices you say us Geocachers use...don't they merely resemble a cell phone? They certainly are no bigger than a cell phone, so I don't know how that could look suspicious). What you don't get is that merely looking suspicious is not probably cause to be questioned or even detained by law enforcement. Many of you have become sheep in this society where you immediately bow down to a flash of the police badge or car or uniform even though you shouldn't have to. There is a Constitution for a reason. Maybe you should read it.

CARoperPhotography
04-20-2012, 11:50 AM
I really think that if the Canadians or the Americans REALLY were terribly concerned about the security of the border, especially in this spot they would change things. But obviously they don't give a damn.

JustKev
04-20-2012, 12:11 PM
Your reply is not germaine in this era, not when terrorists use aircraft to destroy buildings like the towers in New York and their attempt at the Pentagon. Like I said in my post, if a cacher were to stop by the office and let Border Patrol know what they're doing it would probably go an incredible distance toward not having an incident that could easily get blown out of proportion. And just one cacher reacting negatively could give an incredibly bad name to the game here in Maine. Is one geocache really worth it? We should go out of our way to ensure we don't stir up trouble for future cachers and the younger ones currently involved. It's not the "Serious Tool Game".

CARoperPhotography
04-20-2012, 12:54 PM
Your reply is not germaine in this era, not when terrorists use aircraft to destroy buildings like the towers in New York and their attempt at the Pentagon. Like I said in my post, if a cacher were to stop by the office and let Border Patrol know what they're doing it would probably go an incredible distance toward not having an incident that could easily get blown out of proportion. And just one cacher reacting negatively could give an incredibly bad name to the game here in Maine. Is one geocache really worth it? We should go out of our way to ensure we don't stir up trouble for future cachers and the younger ones currently involved. It's not the "Serious Tool Game".

Do you feel you need to stop into every town's police station and inform them that you are Geocaching in their municipality when you enter another town? I doubt it. When a Government's actions have instilled enough fear into it's citizenry where they feel they must check into a border parol office to tell them that they are Geocaching in that area, then we have a tyrannical government who has been enabled by people such as you by allowing them to erode their Constitutional rights without any accountability.

If I am not crossing the border, then there is no reason for me to have any contact with the Border Patrol. Plain and simple. Just as there will be no reason for them to have any contact with me. No one in my own country is going to stop me and say "paper's, please" if I am not violating a law.

It's funny. I was stopped for speeding twice in the last ten days while Geocaching. The first was for doing 66 in a 45 above Calais in Woodland. Hey, I broke the law. Police are there to enforce those laws and they did. The officer gave me a warning. Last night I got stopped by Falmouth PD coming off of 295 near Martin's Point. 50 in a 35. He clocked me just as I was slowing down into the new speed limit zone. Again, he was there enforcing the LAW. Again, a warning. I know how to handle police officers who are truly ENFORCING the law, but to be warned that if I am to NOT cross the border and to walk on the U.S. side to a certain point, I will CERTAINLY be stopped, detained, and questioned? NO f$%^ing way. And anyone who will use the dubious fact that "terrorists use aircraft to destro buildings like the tower in New York and their attempt at the Pentagon" as reason to erode MY Constitutional RIGHTS and civil liberties, has no concept of the truth.

CARoperPhotography
04-20-2012, 12:59 PM
I myself would certainly like to go after that cache. But I would more than likely go through Ft Kent to get it. The advantage of having a valid passport. I do however agree with you that having the border patrol detain you for walking "near" the border would be a huge violation of my civil rights as a US citizen. I am by no means a political rabbel-rouser, but I am also not a fan of undo process. But that is just my opinion. :cool:

I'm a rabbel-rouser!

CARoperPhotography
04-20-2012, 01:02 PM
I'm not saying that it wouldn't be offensive to me to be detained for NOT crossing the border while I was just going after a geocache. I'm saying a blanket bashing of the border patrol for doing their job is out of line. In today's world, where terrorism has become more prevalent, what's wrong with taking a few extra precautions when approaching the border to find a geocache? Why can't we look at it as the Border Patrol has a difficult job to do and why do we, as Geocachers, have to make it more difficult. Someone should just stop at the Border Patrol station and say, "This is what we're doing.". We've talked about approaching the state to see what we can do to be able to place more caches in state parks. If a group of cachers creates an issue over just one cache that's so close to the border how is that going to look when we try to place caches in the state parks? Even if you don't agree that the necessity exists for such stringent controls being in place at the border they are, in fact, in place. It's exactly the same premise as not agreeing that you should be required, by law, to wear your seatbelt. My personal feeling on seatbelts is that if you don't wear one you're a moron but there shouldn't be a law saying you have to wear one. I won't drive my car if someone in the car is unbuckled. It's either buckle up or get out and walk. If I couldn't get to the cache from the United States without disturbing the Border Patrol and I didn't have a passport the cache would simply go unfound by me.

Oh Poooooor Border Patrol. They have such a hard job. Come off it..... You really surprise me JustKev. I expected more from someone with the Eagle, Globe, and Anchor so prominently displayed as your Avatar. Guess you shouldn't judge a book by it's cover

JustKev
04-20-2012, 01:03 PM
Once again, I'm done. You see your point of view and no others. Buh-bye.

CARoperPhotography
04-20-2012, 01:11 PM
Once again, I'm done. You see your point of view and no others. Buh-bye.

Seeing another's point of view and agreeing with an other's point of view are TWO different things. I am not obligated by some contract here on GeocachingMaine.org to see or agree with someone else's view. I do though, read everyone's posts and listen to them. However in doing so, it does not mean that I must agree or "see" your view, whatever "seeing" one's point of view means! So instead of sitting here and trying to get me to agree with you or impart YOUR view on me, you choose to run away. Again.... what's with that Eagle, Globe, and Anchor avatar? Just saying..... JustKev

CARoperPhotography
04-20-2012, 01:48 PM
SO what now?

tat
04-21-2012, 08:13 AM
I spoke with the North Maine Woods yesterday and they told me that the woods roads go to Escourt Station from the south of town. There is no need to go to Canada or bushwhack or trespass on anyone's property. It's a long, but scenic drive and probably worth the trip, especially if you don't care to go to Canada.

Please call and verify first before you go and don't forget to ask at the gate if there are road closures or logging activities watch for.

CARoperPhotography
04-21-2012, 08:32 AM
I spoke with the North Maine Woods yesterday and they told me that the woods roads go to Escourt Station from the south of town. There is no need to go to Canada or bushwhack or trespass on anyone's property. It's a long, but scenic drive and probably worth the trip, especially if you don't care to go to Canada.

Please call and verify first before you go and don't forget to ask at the gate if there are road closures or logging activities watch for.

So TAT let me get this straight, you don't need to cross the border or trespass? I am mistaken then because the roads coming from the south seem to come out on the border and then literally on top of the border, or a few feet to the west of the border, into Canada until the cache and it darts back across the U.S. sign.

I love trips like this! I will call as well. Thanks for providing this information!

JustKev
04-21-2012, 10:41 AM
Actually called Borderpatrol this afternoon. they transfered me to the main office for that region (fort kent) and the agent said all you would need to get across and back if you don't have a passport is your birth certificate. I ask about walking in completely on the US side and he said I would be seen and stopped. With everything going on where I work and things here at home I am thinking about giving this a shot in July. The border patrol actually suggested crossing at fort kent and then doing a quick run up on pavede roads with a lot less miledge and time spent. Looking into both ways.

So, the above conversation serves the same purpose as a "No Trespassing" sign. Once you are told you can't go there by someone in an official capacity the only correct answer is that you can't go there. With the information Tat found, it would appear that approaching from the avenue provided from his information would be the only way to make it to this cache from the United States side of the border. I'd still be in contact with both North Maine Woods and the Border Patrol before approaching that close to the international border.

Chadd, with respect to my avatar, I served honorably and was discharged honorably and am proud of my service to my country.

brdad
04-21-2012, 01:12 PM
Exactly, Kevin. Some times you're better off to get permission even if you are not legally required to do so. Considering the reward is a cache find, IMO it's hardly worth an altercation.

firefighterjake
04-22-2012, 07:15 PM
This geocaching "thing" . . . it's still just a game, right? ;)

CARoperPhotography
04-22-2012, 09:02 PM
So, the above conversation serves the same purpose as a "No Trespassing" sign. Once you are told you can't go there by someone in an official capacity the only correct answer is that you can't go there. With the information Tat found, it would appear that approaching from the avenue provided from his information would be the only way to make it to this cache from the United States side of the border. I'd still be in contact with both North Maine Woods and the Border Patrol before approaching that close to the international border.

Chadd, with respect to my avatar, I served honorably and was discharged honorably and am proud of my service to my country.

Unless there are physical "No Tresspassing" Signs in place in the area I want to cross to access this cache, there is no reason to detain me, or anyone else simply because we remained on the proper side of the border. The information that TAT and Surfacewarrior provided to not truly answer my questions. TAT's post seems to be a general idea of how to get to the cache area, but not location. Based on what he has said, and what he was told by North Woods, It doesn't make sense comparing that information to the maps, and the Google imagery. But it does say that there is no need to cross the border OR bushwhack to the cache, that being said, I am even more likely to do this cache, AND I am sure that the Border Patrol will try to detain me for NOT crossing the border, which you Kev think is perfectly legal and right, and proper. THAT sir is why I question your bearing of that sacred emblem in your avatar.....

CARoperPhotography
04-22-2012, 09:04 PM
Exactly, Kevin. Some times you're better off to get permission even if you are not legally required to do so. Considering the reward is a cache find, IMO it's hardly worth an altercation.

An altercation? With law enforcement agents who are paid by my tax dollars, to protect our country from people crossing illegally into it. Considering I wouldn't be crossing the border, and I am already HERE legally as a citizen, they have no reason to detain me, and you are correct, there would be an altercation if they did.

brdad
04-22-2012, 09:53 PM
An altercation? With law enforcement agents who are paid by my tax dollars, to protect our country from people crossing illegally into it. Considering I wouldn't be crossing the border, and I am already HERE legally as a citizen, they have no reason to detain me, and you are correct, there would be an altercation if they did.

I have no problem with customs questioning anyone appearing to cross the border in an illegal/suspicious manner. Detaining that person without further proof of misconduct would be a different story. If someone appears to be trying to enter into our border from Canada I'd hope they would be questioned on the Canadian side as well.

So for me at this particular cache, I'd rather approach from the road and go through customs if needed rather than take the chance of having to forced to discuss it in the middle of the woods. Feel free to approach it the way you desire.

CARoperPhotography
04-22-2012, 10:23 PM
Sadly enough, it goes to show you how pathetic our border patrol are if they can detect some Canadian cacher crossing the border to place this thing on OUR soil and countless Canadians going across that little bridge to find it either. Yet, they'd have the audacity to stop and question me because I stayed on our side of the border? Thats the illustration I was hoping someone would point out...

I'd really love to know why our border patrol allowed the Canucks to invade and conquer with a cache listed in Quebec, when it is really in the U.S.! ;-)

brdad
04-23-2012, 06:32 AM
I thought of this too, but am assuming it is because the border 'gate' is not directly on the line. Also, someone walking across the bridge is less suspicious than if they had been swimming across with moss over their head for camo. I think they have to make that decision as it happens - it sure would be easier if there was a just a 30 foot electric fence (think big time bug zapper) on the border.

Anyway, the border patrol is what it is, we can't change them in this forum but we can get the cache.

JustKev
04-23-2012, 07:19 AM
Yep, I'm done trying to argue with you Chadd. You're always right, no matter what. Buh bye.

surfacewarrior
04-23-2012, 08:05 AM
sorry I did not mean to kick this hornets nest before going away for the weekend. It might be worth while to go back and read the article chad linked at the beginning of this thread. (1) that guy , while a canadian, spent time in jail for buying gas at a US gas station with out driving past it to check in at the US Customs station so even though he was in the US he was on the CANADIAN SIDE of the customs station. (2) and It seemed that A couple of NEW agents to the area changed the way things had been done in the past. (Those were the ones I was talking about being jerks) The article said the town aclually stopped picking up US citizens trash and snowplowing their streets, so things changed at that point. if the maps show going through the US Border patrol stationI think I will get a passport just to be on the safe side and not waste a 500 mile trip to be turned around at the border. And Kev, I know a much as most the reason for the ramp up at the borders, I was on board the USS DETROIT in newyork Harbor, tied up on the Jersey side of the bay on 9-11, Then 3 weeks later had to spend 2 months in DC waiting to retire while the ship left on deployment durring all of the ANthrax scare in the capitol area. Tower 2 was seen coming down with out the aid of a TV.

brdad
04-23-2012, 04:05 PM
Lets keep any discussion of border patrol out of this thread unless it has to do directly with this cache. If you go do the cache and and had a positive or negative experience, feel free to report it.

CARoperPhotography
04-23-2012, 04:06 PM
What is the process if any to get Groundspeak to correct the listing so it says that it is in Maine, and not Quebec? Send Groundspeak an email? Any ideas? Can it be done? Any ideas TAT?

CARoperPhotography
04-23-2012, 04:50 PM
sorry I did not mean to kick this hornets nest before going away for the weekend. It might be worth while to go back and read the article chad linked at the beginning of this thread. (1) that guy , while a canadian, spent time in jail for buying gas at a US gas station with out driving past it to check in at the US Customs station so even though he was in the US he was on the CANADIAN SIDE of the customs station. (2) and It seemed that A couple of NEW agents to the area changed the way things had been done in the past. (Those were the ones I was talking about being jerks) The article said the town aclually stopped picking up US citizens trash and snowplowing their streets, so things changed at that point. if the maps show going through the US Border patrol stationI think I will get a passport just to be on the safe side and not waste a 500 mile trip to be turned around at the border. And Kev, I know a much as most the reason for the ramp up at the borders, I was on board the USS DETROIT in newyork Harbor, tied up on the Jersey side of the bay on 9-11, Then 3 weeks later had to spend 2 months in DC waiting to retire while the ship left on deployment durring all of the ANthrax scare in the capitol area. Tower 2 was seen coming down with out the aid of a TV.

Re-read that article. Go back and RE-READ the article involving the border incident at Estcourt Station in 2002. You are incorrect. The man was not arrested and jailed for not checking at the border control station. What happened, is that the station is only open 8 hours a day. During the rest of that time period, people come and go as they wish on a semi-honor system. What happened was the man was at the town’s gas station which is on the U.S side of the border, and a border patrol agent happened to be there as well, filling up his truck or something. He saw a blaze orange hunting vest in the mans truck, which caught his eye, which then spotted a shot gun in the truck. The man was arrested for two things, for crossing the border with a firearm, a big no-no (DON’T even get me into 2nd Amendment Rights please...) AND because the man was a prior felon from some youthful indiscretion (as a politician would phrase their crimes from years before) he was also not allowed to come into the U.S. without being approved by immigration ahead of time. This man crossed the border several times a week this same way.

JustKev
04-23-2012, 05:55 PM
Dave, the Border Patrol has everything to do with this cache if anyone is planning on bushwhacking to the cache. They have stated that anyone seen approaching the border in this manner will be stopped. The discussion, IMHO, requires information about the Border Patrol be included. As an additional tidbit for consideration, spread out over several posts it is beginning to seem like the cache may actually be on the US side but not into the US with relation to where one passes through a gate or the Border Patrol checkpoint. If that is the case, it may very well be that it is only accessible if you have a passport or, as surfacewarrior mentioned in a previous post, your birth certificate. This is beginning to smell like one of those proverbial grey areas.

CARoperPhotography
04-23-2012, 06:03 PM
Dave, the Border Patrol has everything to do with this cache if anyone is planning on bushwhacking to the cache. They have stated that anyone seen approaching the border in this manner will be stopped. The discussion, IMHO, requires information about the Border Patrol be included. As an additional tidbit for consideration, spread out over several posts it is beginning to seem like the cache may actually be on the US side but not into the US with relation to where one passes through a gate or the Border Patrol checkpoint. If that is the case, it may very well be that it is only accessible if you have a passport or, as surfacewarrior mentioned in a previous post, your birth certificate. This is beginning to smell like one of those proverbial grey areas.

Very good point Kev. I have to agree with you on this one, that discussion of the BP is important. I am a bit perplexed by the birth certificate issue (yes, and by Obama's birth certificate issue as well) because in all the research I have done, a birth certificate is not enough to get you back into the US. I don't know why the restrictions would be different in this particular spot. I wish the BP in Northern Maine could be trusted but I hate to take them at their word and then find out that they are wrong. As always in law enforcement, it always comes down to how good or how bad of a day that particular agent you are dealing with, is having ha ha

brdad
04-23-2012, 07:40 PM
Dave, the Border Patrol has everything to do with this cache if anyone is planning on bushwhacking to the cache.

I agree. But there were some posts deleted which had nothing to do with the border patrol at the cache but issues with the border patrol system itself. A few other posts ended up being removed as well as they were out of context with the other posts missing. Catch me in chat or PM if you'd like more details.

CARoperPhotography
04-23-2012, 07:43 PM
I have the entire thread saved to PDF before Mr. Party Pooper aka Brdad did his moderator magic :mad: ha ha

Send me a PM and I'll email them to you if you wish! I understand why Dave deleted them, but still.... they were good posts!!!!

brdad
04-23-2012, 07:54 PM
I have the entire thread saved to PDF before Mr. Party Pooper aka Brdad did his moderator magic :mad: ha ha

Send me a PM and I'll email them to you if you wish! I understand why Dave deleted them, but still.... they were good posts!!!!

You fail to mention I PMd you and gave you time to save them, so you could put them in a blog post. You still need to follow guidelines there, but general ranting about the BP should be safe there. It would probably be of interest to some members.

http://www.geocachingmaine.org/forum/blog.php

CARoperPhotography
04-23-2012, 07:56 PM
I have yet to do a blog post on here. What do I do? Just curious. I am sure I can figure it out. You gotta admit though I am sure you watched the videos I posted.... ha ha

brdad
04-23-2012, 07:57 PM
I've never blogged either, but go to the link I posted and there is a new blog button.

YarnMaker
05-09-2012, 08:02 AM
Well I am guessing that if you go after this cache, have your passport or passcard in hand, just to prevent a possible hassle from either countrys border control people

CARoperPhotography
05-17-2012, 12:29 PM
Well I am guessing that if you go after this cache, have your passport or passcard in hand, just to prevent a possible hassle from either countrys border control people

Wow. Thanks for the advice.

CARoperPhotography
06-02-2012, 07:22 PM
I am Sitting at the bar drinking a few beers and just saw on NBC Channel 6 Bill Green's Maine, a story about Estacourt Station! They were showing the bridge that the cache is located on and interviewing residents about the border etc. no volume at the bar so I couldn't hear it but I will look for the story online tonight and try to post link to video!

Sabby
06-21-2012, 09:26 AM
It looks like it has been archived

Location: Quebec, Canada
luigijambone archived Outre-Frontière (Archived) (Traditional Cache) at 6/20/2012

Log Date: 6/20/2012
Ma première cache est désormais archivée snif snif

brdad
06-21-2012, 12:48 PM
That's too bad, I was still hoping to go some day...