View Full Version : Since When!!!!!!!!!!!!!



dí76
11-14-2005, 10:22 PM
Has any one checked out the allegash tramway cache, It's been archived.

Since when cant you put a cache in the allagash is that a federal park??

Public use land my @SS!!!!!!!!!

One more person telling people how to use the maine woods. I bet she is from Mass.

She said that the cache has been removed and was encouraging people to access it illegally, What is that all abouthttp://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?guid=f39b6733-ac26-4e24-ab1d-5b10835d42f5

What is this world coming to???:mad:

J_Cyr
11-14-2005, 10:36 PM
What the hell... thats not allowed... I wonder why he published that...

Beach Comber
11-14-2005, 10:57 PM
I don't think she is encouraging people to access it illegally, but is saying that the geocache placement is doing that. I wonder why GPSFun would have approved the cache in the first place.

attroll
11-15-2005, 12:42 AM
Gee, who has been trying to access illegally? Only three people have found it so how can this lady say that. What is considered illegally? The three people that have logged it I know drove to it and took an olf road into it. Correct me if I am wrong Brad.

tat
11-15-2005, 03:02 AM
I know this is a very touchy subject, but I understand the AWW's viewpoint. They are managing a WILDERNESS waterway. While most of the state of Maine has a very generous public use tradition, even on private land, the AWW is different. The AWW was created by popular vote by all Mainers. The management is required by law to keep that area a wildernes area. There is a lot of demand for access both locally and by people from away.

In my opinion, the bottom line is:

"By submitting a cache listing, you assure us that you have adequate permission to hide your cache in the selected location."

By placing a cache w/o permission of the person managing the land, we make it harder to work with land managers.

Mainiac1957
11-15-2005, 06:54 AM
When I went back in there on Labor Day weekend the lady at the gate asked where we were going. When I told her the tram she said "they" don't like people going up there.They meaing the rangers or the land managers or whatever. She didn't try and stop me but just thought she'd mention the fact. As you all said it is public land, but in a sensitive wilderness area. I can see where the don't want a large volume of people up there tromping around. So I guess I'm saying I don't mind it being resticted. OK Tom, and Dave since we were the only ones to log it I guess that makes us FTFers :p I've been there twice this year and I will most likely go again at some other time. It is a spectacular area to visit.

brdad
11-15-2005, 07:13 AM
The rules are the rules, and they should be respected.

But if the managers had their choice, no one would go to the AWW. It's just like the wildlife refuge's - I find it funny they won't allow a small box hidden there, but they allow all those video cameras they make the movies for that site Dave1976 I think pointed out! At what point in time did man stop being part of nature?

WhereRWe?
11-15-2005, 07:42 AM
This land is there for public use: it's owned by the People of Maine, not the "waterway manager". I would think that they'd want to encourage people to see it (a cache does that), not discourage people.

And obviously this "waterway manager" monitors geocaching.com, looking for caches in the area...

Sheesh!

(Just think, Haffy, Brad and Dave1976, about the caching trip you made this weekend. If it Khatadin becomes a national park, all those caches will have to go. LOL!)

WhereRWe?
11-15-2005, 07:48 AM
And remember: NO SWEARING IN THE ALAGASH WILDERNESS WATERWAY! (I'm glad they didn't define "coarse language". I probably wouldn't be allowed to say "sheesh!)

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

(See rules here (http://www.state.me.us/doc/parks/programs/aww/awwrules.htm))

tat
11-15-2005, 01:56 PM
[QUOTE=WhereRWe?]This land is there for public use: it's owned by the People of Maine, not the "waterway manager". I would think that they'd want to encourage people to see it (a cache does that), not discourage people.

And obviously this "waterway manager" monitors geocaching.com, looking for caches in the area...

/QUOTE]


True the land is owned by the People of Maine. There was a referendum in 1966 to issue a bond to purchase the land to create the nation's first Wilderness Waterway. The policies are not created by any "waterway manager" but by the legislature and written into statutes. She is required by Maine law to enforce the rules. I doubt she is looking very hard at geocaching as that cache has been there for at least a year.

Here is a link outlining the policies: http://mainegov-images.informe.org/doc/parks/Pubs/AWWPlan/RevisedPlan.pdf

A lot has changed over the years, but I think most Mainers still want the Allagash managed for traditional uses and to keep it's wilderness character. I'm not sure that most Mainers want access to be as restrictive as it is now. I am certain most people from the county would like more access. Google the "John's bridge parking lot" debate from about 2001 and you should be able to find a lot about both sides. People who live in the southern part of the state are overwhelmed by urban sprawl and are probably a little paranoid about increasing access. Or, is it a normal, healthy fear?

I think Geocaching should be permitted in the Allagash. Perhaps gcmaine.org as a group could design a cache, consistent with legislated policies and work to get approval

dí76
11-15-2005, 02:50 PM
I spent some time loolking for an email address to send a polite email to the land managers explaining a geocache and how it works and that most cachers are good for the land such as cito and bring people to the area. The amount of cachers going into the tramway versus people going in to look at the train are far less.

If any one could find an email address for me it would be helpful.

Thanks

Dave

Haffy
11-15-2005, 04:46 PM
Dave,try this:http://www.state.me.us/doc/parks/contact/index.html

They have phone and fax numbers but I didn't see any email addresses.

tat
11-15-2005, 05:07 PM
This group is probably against caching in the AWW.

http://www.maineenvironment.org/allagash_history.asp

Haffy
11-15-2005, 05:16 PM
It also seems there is a group trying to restore the locomotives so more people are able to enjoy them,kind of just the opposite to what the so-called land managers are trying to do by discouraging geocaching. Doesn't make any sense to me but here is another link that you might find interesting: http://www.destinationmaine.com/thoreau/trains.htm

WhereRWe?
11-15-2005, 06:15 PM
ROLOST2? and I were out caching today - yes, in the snow - and one cache was on a "rail-trail". We pulled onto the trail to get off the road, leaving plenty of room for an ATV, biker or hiker. We nabbed the cache and when we got back to the car, there was a card under the wiper from a bureaucrat from the Off-Road Division, Bureau of Parks and Lands, Department of Conservation, with a note on the back "Please do not park on the trail. No vehicles are allowed on the trail". Sheesh! We only pulled off a few feet to get out of the road. With my license plate, he should have known why we were there. I think this is excessive.

I could understand if we had blocked the trail, or were WAY down the trail, but it was obvious we just pulled off the road.

:mad: :mad: :mad:

Smitty & Co.
11-15-2005, 07:24 PM
Bruce did this happen to you folks on the "Beside the Lake" cache (GCQ014) Going north out of Newport? If so I too had this happen to me there earlier this summer. Instead though my wife and younger daughter stayed with the car while my older daughter and myself retrieved the cache.Soon after we left a truck approached my wife in the car. My wife said he was nice enough but he wanted us moved, now and not to wait for us to come back from the cache before we did either, She moved the car. :) Like you said, we were not by any means in anyone's way but Rules are rules and it is stated this trail is for ATV's but I think this man's behavior was excessive too.

Haffy
11-15-2005, 10:18 PM
Ok, heres the scoop on the Tramway cache. I emailed the owner of the cache and he spoke to the women on the phone who is the contact person regarding the Tramway. She told him that the only way they want people to get to the Tramway is by water. Go figure. Anyway for anyone who is interested in talking to her regarding this issue,the cache owner gave me her email address:marilyn.tourtelotte@maine.gov

Sudonim
11-16-2005, 12:15 AM
She told him that the only way they want people to get to the Tramway is by water.

OK, here is a solution. Turn this into a multi-cache with the first coords on Farm Island. You have to get there with a boat...so you would arrive at the cache from the water. Works for me:p

WhereRWe?
11-16-2005, 09:48 AM
Bruce did this happen to you folks on the "Beside the Lake" cache (GCQ014) Going north out of Newport? If so I too had this happen to me there earlier this summer. Instead though my wife and younger daughter stayed with the car while my older daughter and myself retrieved the cache.Soon after we left a truck approached my wife in the car. My wife said he was nice enough but he wanted us moved, now and not to wait for us to come back from the cache before we did either, She moved the car. :) Like you said, we were not by any means in anyone's way but Rules are rules and it is stated this trail is for ATV's but I think this man's behavior was excessive too.

Yup - you guessed it. I've got a feeling the guy lives right across the highway. A guy was outside when we got out of the car, and I thought he looked at us a little strangely...

Sabby
11-16-2005, 12:10 PM
I have been reading the posts here and just have to add my two cents.

It seems that you have a pristine wilderness area that the state has tried to protect by buying property next to the waterway, designating a restricted zone within 1 mile of the waterway, and setting controls on use for a farther distance. They have designated uses for the area and put limits on the roads, parking, and trails within the area. They require permitting to build, cut trees, log, build roads, maintain trails, etc. They have designated the tramway area as a historic district and are trying to stabilize the engines that are there. A manager has been put in place to enforce the rules that the state government has enacted.

Now it seems that you are upset that a cache has been archived and removed. A cache that in my opinion was placed contrary to geocaching.com rules and state laws. Like it or not this is a protected area under the jurisdiction of a manager. It does not appear as though the cache had approval of that manager. It was placed in the historical district inside the protected zone. It indicated a parking area that was not one of the designated areas set up by the manager. It advocated using trails not approved (maintained) by the agency or designated as an access point to the waterway.

Now what is the real question here?

Are you upset that you canít do what you want on land that has rules protecting it?

Do you feel that your rights are being violated because geocaching is not one of the designated uses?

Do you think that it is OK to ignore lawful rules on parking and access to protected prperty?

Come on Mainers. There is a lot of land in the state to place caches without getting into a row with state agencies. Try to work with those given the authority to enforce state laws and respect their viewpoint too. Place caches using geocaching guidelines and donít advocate things that are contrary to laws, whether you agree with the law or not.

Hey I love Maine even though I live in New York. I love walking in the woods, enjoying nature, and beautiful vistas. I am a caching junkie but I feel that we all need to coexist and have respect for others.

It will take a long time and a lot of work to repair the damage that can be done in an instant by one cache or cacher that does not think about the bigger picture. Donít give caching a black eye.

OK my two cents. Now you can vent too.

dí76
11-16-2005, 01:45 PM
I was vorn and brought up in this state and have left only on a few occasion and always glad to be home. I the past few years I have seen this state set guide lines as to who what when and where a resident can do it the wild. This planet has sustained it's self for thousands of years with out people getting involved.

Now, you are allowed to hunt and fish and drive and harvest timber and snowmobile and paddle in the allagash. Since when did a Geocacher do more damage than a Skiddah. I think that it is pathetic that a person can not place a ammo can in a forest as vast as the Allegash however can run a skidder and a logging truck through the woods. I think it is pathetic that you can not just walk through the woods but you can hunt there. So my take on the allagash is that you can drive through it and paddle down it but you cant stop and get out of you vehicle.

I think that if 10,000 people have walked a trail and created a means of getting some where (ie. tramway) the damage is already done. Why not embrace it and finish the trail and make it a part of history that all can enjoy. I think that if they are going to charge you to you the North Maiine woods than you should be able to walk the trail to the tramway. I also think that one whole third of the state that is in the north west is only accessible through the north maine woods assocation and you must pay a fee. Public land use is a farce. You can use it if you want to pay for it. As a Maine tax payer this land should be avilible for me to use.

I still dont think that a ammo can and the follks that visit it will ever do nearly as much damage as the tools that we use to harvest wood however they are there and no body cares

Just a thought

Dave

tat
11-16-2005, 01:50 PM
Sabby, certainly we should obey the law. What we are saying here is that we are challenging the decision of the manager because we do not think the cache placements are in violation of Maine statutes. I think everyone agrees that permission must be obtained in advance. That is not the issue. Also, a cache should not be placed where it is going to damage the wilderness waterway.

I think one central issue is access. In order to be classified as a Wilderness Waterway, the access must be severely limited. Any access not listed in the Maine statues is, by law, illegal.

This is the third cache in the AWW (that I know of) to be removed. The one of the other two was in a designated camping area and had legal access, so access is not the only issue. Another central issue is limited use of the waterway.

Geocaching is not the only group that is in conflict with the AWW management. Actually, the AWW management is a lightning rod for all groups from sportsmen to local hics :) to out-a-state do-gooders to timber companies to ATV and snowmoblilers to historians. It is very confusing when the AWW management endorses visits to the train yard on one website but then complains when Geocaching gives directions to find it.

Geocaching is in the unique position where we can make a positive contribution to the river management. We could place a cache that helps explain what policies are in place and why they are important to uphold. Perhaps the best part of this is that, by far, most people get informed and very few will ever visit the area. We should have no problem proving that this will not substantially increase use. And, use is automatically documented. Perhaps more people would respect the access and use policies if they knew why the policies are in effect.