Perhaps we should start with a simple task, such as a mission statement.
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Perhaps we should start with a simple task, such as a mission statement.
That would be a very good start. Do we have any volunteer's that would like to draft one up.Quote:
Originally Posted by tat
I'm confused. What do we need a mission statement for?
At this moment, the poll shows 13 Yes, 23 No, and 6 Don't care (3 No and 2 DC were added since yesterday at about this time when I was thinking about it. No Yes votes have been tallied in the last day.)
A mission statement would be required if an organization was forming. Based on the poll results, there doesn't seem to be a consensus to move ahead.
The poll results do seem to be representative of the people visiting the forums and posting here on the board:
49 people have posted at least one message since 7/7 when the poll was started - and 42 have voted. (62 have posted since 7/1). That seems like a pretty good percentage.
98 people have visited since 7/7 so half of the people visting here have either not read or, if read, have chosen not to vote/comment on this thread. (123 have visited since 7/1) Until now, that would include me.
So, is this moving ahead?
I don't see where it would do any hard to have a mission statement. We don't even need to be a organization to do that. In fact, it might help us discuss just what we as a group want to do for the geocaching and non-geocaching communities.Quote:
Originally Posted by kayakerinme
I'd like to see a few people write a draft up and see what comes of it. We can always vote it down if it does not sound like something we want to do.
I think I am still against a full fledged organization, and despite the actual votes, many people here seem to have swayed toward the center or possibly changed their mind on the issue. That is one problem with running a vote before ideas are discussed. Plus, it'd be good to get a vote from a larger percentage of members.
I think kayakerinme has a good point, we should not give the appearance that a few of us are going against the wishes of the majority. In fact, the more we kick this around the less I understand the question!
Should we have a Geocaching Maine Organization?
What is an organization? I'm not sure I have any idea what I'm voting for or against!
Maybe a better next step is to come up with a survey listing as many things as posible:
Do you want a mission statement?
Would you pay dues?
Do you want to lobby for political action?
Do you want someone else to lobby on your behalf?
Do you want to make decisions base on polls?
Do you want more guidelines for posting?
Do you want this site to be more than a forum?
The way this thread has seemed to develop (in my observation), maybe we want a small group to lobby our interests in case there is a local or state opposition to geocaching.
Here's an idea:
- Our goal is provide a free Internet community for the sharing of information related to the Geocaching.
- We will do this by using open forums for all to use.
- We will honor freedom of speech (within limits).
- We will do tour best to keep this environment friendly for all.
- We will share or pass information on to others in regards to updates and information on the Geocaching as it becomes available.
- We will respect others opinions and not force our views on to others.
- We expect the same in return from others.
Note: One person does not own Geocaching Maine. Everyone on this site shares a piece of it. Lets work together and help our Maine community of Geocaching Enthusiasts grow.
I said in a earlier post,that organizations cause a lot of hate and discontent among friends,etc,etc.Also that I don't like to belong to organizations.I realized right after I made that statement,that I do belong to the Bicycle Coalition of Maine.If anybody knows anything about this group,you'll know that we have accomplished a lot of good things for biking in Maine.We have in Jeff Miller a president that works tiredlessly for the group,along with lots and lots of volunteer help.We have great rallies and events every year.
Organizations give you power and with power comes the ability to get things done.The BCM has gotten us more bike lanes,more share the road signs and overall better riding conditions.Jeff is in Augusta almost daily working with our legislators or the D.O.T.
At this time what do we need to accomplish that we need the power of a organization?
I'm curious how large a group we might be able to get. Consider the following:Quote:
Originally Posted by brdad
I've pulled an arbitrary number of at least 6 posts as someone whom I would consider "active". I think it's a fairly low number and arguments can be made to move this number up or down. Using this as a base, however, ...
Only 95 members with 6 or more posts have posted in the last 6 months. In fact, only 115 members have more than 6 posts period. 62 of those 95 have posted at least one message in July. I think of these as the "active" folks.
Of the 682 members as of this post, 397 have visited the site since the beginning of the year; 309 have visited since April 1. What I can't see are which are based in Maine and which are "from away" so to speak. I have sent a request to Groundspeak asking how many cachers have identified themselves as hailing from Maine, but I haven't heard anything yet.
So... going back to the 95 "active" folks, 44% have answered the survey in one way or another. 42 of 49 folks that have posted since the survey was introduced five days ago have voted one way or the other.
It seems to me that about the highest number one might achieve with this survey is about 100 folks, and IMHO, this seems like it'd be pushing it.
What does a "larger percentage" mean to you? What would make it a satisfactory survey?
Thanks!
I was thinking kinda the same thing but didnt want to do the math to figure it out. Nicely done. I think that their is a huge percentage of folks that signed on to keep up with the new coin but other than that the others have just come and gone. I think we have enough numbers to represent the group. Remember that the folks that are truely the regulars are somewhat of a small group.Quote:
Originally Posted by kayakerinme
In answer to your question Vic I see the need is coming very soon. As you well know Geocaching is growing by leaps and bounds each and every day. There are approximately around 1400 caches in the state now and more and more are being added everyday.
Unfortunately not all geocachers follow all the rules and regulations put forth by GC.com. I feel that we will begin to see restrictions placed on us that will in the future forbid us to place caches. In that regards I think we need to establish some guidelines of our own and be able to help the non-geocacher make wise choices as to the how ,where, and why they want to place caches. I think an organization,not necessarily a dues paying or having officers per se, is needed so we can be here to answer questions and be stewards of this great state of ours.
Already in a few states restrictions are being forced upon geocachers and we need to be able to discuss with landowners, land managers,forestry representatives throughout the state that we are responsible stewards of the land.
As an organization I think we will have a better ability to deal with situations that almost assuredly will occur and we will have a strong backbone with which to deal with these situations. We have an opportunity at this time to make a big difference in how the general public looks upon us and to really make Maine Geocaching "The Way caching should Be"
Thanks a million for doing this!! I lovvvvvvvvvve the numbers - so revealing and helpful. Hmmm - maybe that is why I enjoy QA and research!!! Though more responses is always better, it is important to remember that getting a high percentage of responses is very unlikely. In fact, 44% is in line with the typical response rate. Some might even say it is a bit better than par. It seems a good representation to me. The question remains perhaps whether or not people would have indicated a different response had the discussion taken place before the poll or perhaps if the question was worded differently. It is hard to know without putting out another poll.Quote:
Originally Posted by kayakerinme
I agree. It isn't that I don't think the opinion of everyone who is a member is not important, but that those who have an interest in the ongoings of the group are likely to be active and therefore represented in the poll.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave1976
I don't believe that establishing our own guidelines will help to achieve everyone following the already written expectations. If people are not following them now, they will likely not follow them after we write them. I'm not saying don't write them, as much as we need to have realistic expectations.Quote:
Originally Posted by haffy
This approach is where we are likely to have the most success. Aren't we already doing this?
This should be it. Sorry Rick, but the rest of it sounds like my mother lecturing me.Quote:
Originally Posted by attroll
Thanks, Rick ................ Geocaching in Maine, the way it should be.
By the way we voted NO!! and this doesn't sound to " organized " to me.
What I would like to see is all members, or at least all members who desire to be contacted (perhaps via their profile or an entry when they join up), get an email whenever a vote or discussion like this comes up describing what is being discussed. Just like political voting, many will not bother. But at least the people who only come to this web site once a month or even once a year will be notified. of course, there is still a percentage of Maine cachers who don't belong to the site, we all should be doing to see what we can do to fix that!Quote:
Originally Posted by kayakerinme
I post often here, but I would never consider myself "regular." ;) :DQuote:
Originally Posted by dave1976
Thank goodness there is someone here that has a head for figures . . . because that person certainly wouldn't be me since I barely squeaked by algebra, advanced algebra, geometry and every other math class I've had to take since kindergarten. If the computing involves more than the number of fingers and toes I have (19 for the record -- darn hay baler accident :D ) I'm usually lost.Quote:
Originally Posted by kayakerinme
One commonality I have seen here from those who are apparently in opposition to organizing is that they don't want things to "change." The ironic thing is that to prevent "change" we have to fight to prevent it. If we sit back and do nothing, geocaching will change. In my short tenure as a geocacher I have seen micros become very prevalent; that has occurred in just over 1 year. When I started there were on 800 geocaches, that number has almost doubled in 1 year. The number of geocachers has increased dramatically and so will the impact on the environment and the perception that the non-geocaching community has of us.
It seems that folks are really concerned that organizing will change our sport when in fact I see it as a way to protect it as it is now. What mechanisms do we have in place to protect it as it currently is? Obviously if someone asked me I would say, "none." We are pointing out number and percentages of participants to these forums and using those statistics as argument for organizing. I think that if we had an organization with a mission statement and a charter that people would have a reason to participate. This site is great to get questions answered and make new friends and chat about geocaching and everything but there are no goals to achieve, nothing to promote geocaching outside of our ranks, nothing in place to protect our sport.
This Statement seems to be a re-occuring theme here.
Quote:
I don't believe that establishing our own guidelines will help to achieve everyone following the already written expectations. If people are not following them now, they will likely not follow them after we write them. I'm not saying don't write them, as much as we need to have realistic expectations.
I agree with it wholeheartedly but I will add that if we organize around a mission statement and a charter, we can effectively say to the general public that our group does not endorse or condone activity that is detrimental to the environment or caching in general. Whereas, right now, we have no way to say that this is what we are, this is what we do and this is what we expect. I don't think we need rules to regulate members here but we could say in a mission statement, " WE, AS AN OFFICIAL GROUP AND SUBSEQUENTLY ALL MEMBERS OF THIS GROUP WILL AND DO STRIVE TO ABIDE BY THE GUIDELINES OUTLINED IN THE `GEOCACHERS CREED'." Then when somebody does not abide by it we can essentially distance ourselves from that individual ultimately protecting the integrety of our group and of our sport.
This is what organizing means to me, not more rules but simply to abide by the existing ones.
Geocaching is changing no matter what we think, some of those that have been geocaching when there were only a couple of geocaches in the whole state have seen major change. I've heard those same cachers complain about the "evolution" of this sport but that is all I have heard; some complaining. Some folks have acted on their complaints and have "splintered off" to do what they think is right. We should follow their example and do the same.
We as a group will not always agree but we don't need to keep dividing our ranks. While there are many philosophies surrounding geocaching, (and I can live with all of them), we still live in one state and should unite under that idea "Maine, caching the way it Should be."
Cache On!!!!
i agree with team2hunt that this brief statement (with changing the word "goal" to "mission") would work. mission statements should be as brief and concise as possible. (maybe i would change the statement to say a free geocaching community - we are WAY more than an internet community).Quote:
Originally Posted by attroll
i agree with everyone that things are changing and we should be organized - as informally as possible. just my 2 cents
Quote:
Originally Posted by firefighterjake
Another point that I brought up with a "Veteran" cacher. We are tolerated but will never be accepted....;)
For me, it is quite the opposite. I don't have a problem with the idea that it IS changing. It sounds like organizing to protect it as it is, is an effort to prevent change rather than seeing things evolve.Quote:
Originally Posted by Trezurs*-R-*Fun
Either way, I will still enjoy geocaching and take from it what I am interested in and give to it what I would like to.
The change I forsee is that we will be limited to where we can place caches. No public parks, no caches on private property in the Northern Maine woods. This is how I see it evolving if we don't protect it. So I guess I agree, organizing to maintain what we have today is what I'm after.Quote:
Originally Posted by Beach Comber
Maybe we should schedule and event and talk this all out. Sometime in August would be great. I am free the 12th or the 19th. I would like to attend and hear what everyone has to say.
Do we know if the Geochicks are planning their BBQ for August???
i think this is a great idea!Quote:
Originally Posted by attroll
For what it's worth, I think we're already an organization, we're just not officially registered anywhere as such. The thought of this place being referred to as a "gossip site" is offensive. I think there have been some intense debates, but the term "gossip" is really not what we've been about. If that's how we'd be perceived by the non-geocaching community, than I'm for making what we already HAVE, official.
I basically subscribe to the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" model. But the point TRF makes about having a voice before we NEED one on political issues has swayed me from my initial thoughts. I haven't voted yet....but I intend to. I just wanted to read all the entries before I did so, and I'm glad I did.
I think people's concerns about the potential for hurt feelings, is valid. Organizations can get very ugly in this way. I don't think we can let that potential for difficulty stand in the way of this forum's potential for speaking in a unified way to anyone opposed to geocaching.
So I guess I believe that the risks of "organizing" outweigh the risks of not doing so. I would hate to see the atmosphere here change -- or add a bunch of rules and reg's to abide by. But I don't think that's necessary.
I just want us to have a voice beyond this setting, should we ever need one. And the time to do that is BEFORE we need one.
I'm just looking for the best of both worlds -- to be loosely bound together, enough to legitimize us in the public eye....but not to make any profound difference in the way we interact or participate in the sport. We could do a mission statement in saying that we subscribe to LNT or the "geocacher's creed"..........
What a tough line to walk! I do want some of the "yes" characteristics, and the "no" options, but I can't vote "I don't care" because I DO!! :confused:
Welcome to that fuzzy space inside my head. It isn't free to rent, but the view is often nice......:rolleyes:
I agree with everything you have said Sewin2cachin and I wish more more of everyone in here felt the same way. I think all we need to do is just come up with some sort of "Geocachers Creed" so to speak and we'll have everything right in front of us. The time will come, I'm almost certain, that we will need a unified voice and I can't think of a better organization to be able to support than the one we have right here.
I can't make either weekend, I'll be in Montana. But, no matter what day you chose, someone won't be able to go!Quote:
Originally Posted by attroll
I have been working with the Nature Conservency at Mt. Agamenticus. The person I talked to was actually concerned that too many cachers would visit. If we organize and are a powerful voice, I wonder if this would be percieved as a threat rather than a group that must be listened to.
We may get more benifit from being more active in trail maintenance and public education projects. This year, there was at least one CITO event. I am certain that Brewer recognizes the effort geocachers put in. CITO events do not need to include cleaning trash. They can also include any type of trail maintenace or such project.
Not to change the subhect, but is anyone up for a Mt. Agamenticus trail maintence event on 15 Oct. 2006? You heard it here first!!
This here makes for the 108th post about this. For the folks that are in favor of this will you just do it. At this point we have not made any ground in awhile. It's all sounding the same. Someone needs to grab the bull by the horns and take charge. No more voting, no more talking about it just post a creed and lets get it done. It appears that we are going to ingnore the fact that right now the majority that have voted have said that the dont want to organize, and gonna beat this until folks change there mind cause they are tired of hearing about it. There are lots of gc creeds out there all ready done. Lets not reinvent the wheel.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tat
You really can't be serious Tat. I can't for the life of me understand why forming an organization would be perceived as a threat. I agree with Dave1976 we are just rehashing the same things here over and over again and getting nowhere. Let's either get someone to put together a simple platform for this geocaching group we have here or just let some other group do just that and let them be the voice for all that we have worked for here.
Maybe after this weekend we won't have to worry about anything anyway.
I don't see anything wrong with having an organization as long as it isn't telling us how we can place or chase caches, or make special demands to have a meet.
My feeling is that if me have an organization the main thing it should do is to work with the land management people, the park people, etc. The same thing we do now basically. Like Hiram and FireFighterJake to name a couple. The mission statement would be to work to keep geocaching something we can all do wherever we go..
This is why we will never acheive what we talk about. I dont want the leadership role in this but somebody must have. We get to a point where it is a fair assumption that we dont want an organization, but do want a creed or what ever you want to call it....... then what nothing happens. Much like the coin. We talk talk talk. Someone has to garb the bull by the horns and take it if you want it bad enough.:)
Quote:
Originally Posted by dave1976
I've had my say and things got bogged down in details. Then the MGA came out and what they offer and what they stand for seems to be very much what I was concerned with. I can't see re-inventing the wheel so I've paid my dues to the MGA and will work with them to help create an organization that will protect, enhance and promote geocaching here in Maine. I truly hope others consider and also add their voice to help face any future challanges..
Cache On!!!!!!
Well, hopefully you have not given up on geocachingmaine.org completely. Your input into this thread seems to have swayed many in your direction, maybe not fully, but partly. I think we all want to be prepared for what may come to the future of Maine geocaching, but we do not want to lose the fun of the game, either.Quote:
Originally Posted by Trezurs*-R-*Fun
Well good for you!! I'm more inclined to go the other way. I 'm seriously considering putting all my caches up for adoption and just letting this hobby go. There is so much more to life than geocaching. I certainly don't want to be associated with those that backstab, suckup, lie, cheat and then try to convince people "that its just a game" Without mentioning anyone's name, I can tell you I have bumped into these cachers and they play cutthroat caching at its best. They tell me that the "reason" for tearing up the roadway in a historically sensitive area was that they had only the info on their PDA and didn't read the cache description....lame excuse if you ask me.(just too lazy to walk a couple hundred feet) On another occasion, I reply to a newspaper article on geocaching and invite that writer to join us here at geocachingmaine.org and then get slammed for inviting the media to "our" site both in their response in the paper and in an angry email sent to me. These same cachers also did a bunch a caches in the Bangor area that had in their respective descriptions not to be done at night. However, they seem to think that because there are no real rules that they can disregard that info and cache at whatever damn time of day that they want to. Again, I won't mention specific names but it has been said on these forums a couple of times,......"I've never met a cacher I didn't like or get along with" well, I wish I could say the same but in all honesty, I've met a few I didn't care for and certainly wouldn't want to be associated with them. Thanks for the fun that we did have and thanks Rick for the website. I hope you all can get it together as a united front but from what I see and read, I doubt it. C-ya!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Trezurs*-R-*Fun
Quote:
Originally Posted by brdad
I hope my post didn't sound like a farewell. GeocachingMaine.org still offers the best of the geocaching world, I honestly believe that. I'm personally concerned and want to make sure that I'm in a position to help protect geocaching in the state of Maine. If it comes to that. A lot of what I bring to the MGA comes straight from this site. For the most part GeocachingMaine.Org has made me the cacher I am today. The people here have a lot to offer and I would never turn my back on them. I'm hoping that I can voice those things that are important "here", "there".. Did that make sense?
My joining the MGA is in no way a reflection on this forum. I would still hope we could organize here but until we do (or don't) I hope I'm positioning myself where I can do the most good. Or at least voice my concerns.
Cache On!!!
I'm sure we will be in a better position very soon to stand up to any scrutiny that anyone might have. Hopefully we can get on the right track and move ahead with this being the best site for Maine geocachers. We have the best of the best here as far as I am concerned.
You're singling people out. There are some popular members who have done many of the same things, either out of competitiveness or enthusiasm. "Too lazy" or whatever, is a judgement and just an opinion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Smitty & Co.
Come on guys, does it REALLY matter who formed the group first?
Kacky,Quote:
Originally Posted by Kacky
You are right...Smitty's tirade seems to be directed at 1 or 2 people (remaining nameless of course) for an a single incident. This is just a game and some people play a little harder than others. End of story...beginning of a new website. By the way, I sent my check in today. And I didn't even go to the meeting on Saturday.
Unfortunately, this is not a "one time" incident, nor does it refer to one cacher. As I stated early on, one of these cachers approached someone "from away" and went into a tirade about other cachers esp. those in "northern" Maine. And then to those "northern" cachers faces were pleasent and courteous. (I'd like to reiterate that this is a wholly separate incident than what Smitty is talking about...I have direct knowledge and will ask the person this happened to if they want me to name them so you can directly ask them questions.)Quote:
Originally Posted by Smitty & Co.
Nor is there ever an excuse (as far as I'm concerned) to blatenly disregard cache descriptions or hours of operation. THAT is the type of behavior that makes it hard for all of us and puts restrictions on where caches get placed. We won't be able to use public access places if we are destroying the habitat or accessing property when we aren't supposed to (ie. after dark.)
Why not take it up with the individuals? This seems like an inefficient way to resolve a grievance.