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My kids and I went out last night to try to find a few caches in our area. We found nothing because the three spots were around shopping centers - kind of our back in a woodsy area. Me being who I am was worried that someone was going to call the police on me for loitering. Does that happen? Do the establishments know that there is something out there? I want to go back but don't want to get in trouble for tromping through the woodsy area.
Hopefully whoever owns the land knows it is there and is okay with people tromping through the woods.
Another cacher gave us a pamphlet that explains Geocaching. I think it may come from http://geocacher-u.com but the site is taking really long to load so I can't verify that. We kept the pamphlet with us and give it to either land owners or law enforcement if they stop us and don't know about the cache. We've been stopped twice (once by a police officer for parking on the side of the road, another time by border patrol near the Canadian border) and both officers were very nice when we explained what we were doing.
Found it, the pamphlet is http://www.geocacher-u.com/resources/brochure1.pdf
Speaking from experience, most Officers have encountered geocachers before and a good chunk of them have tried it. Hold up the gps and let them know what's up. Of course, hiding around a bank and midnight may make them excited, but short of that you should be ok.
As long as you don't mention my name you'll be fine in most cases.
Your not the only one looking for the caches and I always encourage stealth on all caches so they don't come up missing. A lot of cachers are not very stealthy at all. So don't worry about an encounter with the public or officials. This is fun and who knows, you might get someone else interested.
I have placed one in a parking lot at a chain store and it is approved.
I have given up being stealthy most of the time. If it's just someone near the cache site, I might hold off looking at all. But if it's just if store owners or passersby nearby residents, I just go at it as if I am supposed to be there. I'd rather not appear as though I am doing something I am not supposed to. Head up, no hiding behind a tree or other object - just look like you are searching for something. Generally if you are confronted in this manner, you will be more believable.
Caches hidden in these areas should have been placed with permission, but you can't always count on it.
My biggest pet peeve is when the CO asks to be stealthy at the cache site. If I have to be stealthy then the cache isn't worth the time to hunt for it. I'll hunt the the typical urban micro but being stealthy isn't one of my finer points. I'll either just pass on it if there are people around or not look at all and go on to the next.
I love the ayer of secret agent aspect of the finding. It's not for the unimaginative though.
The best way to be invisible in urban areas is to put on a hard hat, yellow vest and hold a clip board.
No one will pay any attention to you then! I have heard that the above items are standard on equipment for urban cachers in Florida.
Check this cache out:
http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache...log=y&decrypt=
Another case of not getting the proper permission to hide a cache. :oQuote:
Originally Posted by cano
And not being Stealthful
The comment about the pipleine is correct. The properties around pipelines and power lines are not usually owned by those companies but leased from the landowner(s).
Regardless of anyone's opinion on stealth, it should never pertain to landowners - meaning a cache hunter should never be put in a position where he has to hide his activity from the person, company, or other entity who owns the land.
Or wear a firefighter uniforrm and carry a clipboard . . . and if anyone asks you say you're doing a fire safety inspection. ;):DQuote:
Originally Posted by lexmano
I've done legal work involving the hundreds of miles of pipelines in Maine.
Yes, in most cases the pipelines are leased, but...the landowners give the pipeline companies all the control of use and access to the leased property. It's the same scenario as any other landlord/tenant situation. The landlord-owner of an apartment house cannot come into the tenants property without the tenants permission except in emergency situations. The Landlord-owner almost always has contractually given up the right to control who comes on the leased property.
So, without getting to the permission part of the equation, the owner of the leased land has no right whatsover to tell anybody on the leased property to get off or assert a trespass violation on behalf of the tenant, in this case the pipeline company.
So if the pipeline company allows public access, expressly or otherwise, then then the owner cant' stop it anymore then a landlord could tell a tenant who or who can't come to the tenants apartment.
Most pipeline companies do NOT restrict public access. Hunting is normally allowed unless the land is posted and it usually is not. The pipelines owners don't allow ATV use due to potential damage to junction boxes and other above ground fixtures, but most other use is not restricted.
So, before you all jump on the "another cache placed without permission bandwagon" I urge a little restraint in both your criticism and negative attitudes towards a geocacher who has always done a lot of good things for the caching community,, like the 2 or 3 CITO events she's sponsored for many years, one this weekend if you're so inclined. And don't forget the hundred or so caches she and her friends have placed all around Lewiston/Auburn.
While I think she was right to archive the cache due to the fact that trying to win one of these arguments with a landowner is never a good idea for our sport, I personally and professionally conclude she did no wrong other than to place a cache in an place where an over zealous person lives.
Dubord brings up a good point - and this has happened in other areas too. By "this", I mean abutting property owners are upset by the use of the property and do or say things which sort of force a cache owner to feel they must move or archive their cache.
I agree, Dubord, the cacher who placed this probably did so with the feeling the pipeline or powerline (whichever it may be) was open for folks to walk on (and ultimately find a cache). It was done, I am sure, not knowing there was a neighbor who would become upset.
In the area I live, there was one where folks parking in the wrong area, inadvertantly walked across the corner of some private property - a tiny portion of a lot, forcing a big mess and the cache to be archived when these neighbors to the powerline became all upset.
In the case of the cache I adopted........the cache was accessed from a Power Line but clearly was well beyond any right of way and placed on private property. There had been a snowmobile trail which ran off the cut - and the orginal cacher walked the trail off the line and just plunked down a cache. After we worked out the details of the land owners concerns, it did last for a while - until there was cutting on the private land.
There are many circumstances to all situations. Dubord has brought to us some general knowledge about the pipelines and powerlines. I concur, the cacher who paced the cache in question has done a lot and certainly did this with no malice and nothing but good intentions and beliefs. Regretfully in this cache situation a neighbor is not happy.
Dan - thank you for pointing these facts out and sharing with us.
Maybe pipelines are different but all I know is I have been told by both CMP and Bangor Hydro that the land some of their lines are on are controlled by the landowner, not them - though they did have some say in the matter to protect their lines. Perhaps there's just an easement or some other arrangement - The only thing I am getting at is we should not assume we know who is control of the land or assume they are ok with a cache being placed there.
No one is disputing this fact Dan. I just think that we as concientious caches should always take the high road and try to get permission on the placement of ANY cache no matter where it is hidden unless of course it is on YOUR land. There are just too many uninformed people placing caches that are questionable as to the owner of such land and it is always on the side of restaint that I think we all ought to think about. Geocaching has come a long way over the years and it is getting harder and harder to hide caches because of irresponsible people. Look at how many caches have been destroyed by the "bomb squads" lately just to name a specific incident. The person in your thinking might have been "over zealous" as you state but put that uninformed person in your shoes. JMHOQuote:
Originally Posted by dubord207
Quote:
Originally Posted by dubord207
I just want to point out the "most cases" part. I am not looking at this pointing out, or pointing at any cacher, this is just information.
We have a pipeline that runs across our propery. we get no money or benifit of any kind from this pipeline. We are required to allow access to the pipeline company 24/7/365, we also have to allow them the right to maintain the pipeline (which means they can cut a 50 foot path for a 12 inch pipe.)
The pipe was there when we bought the land so we had no say in it. According to the previous land owner neither did they when the pipe went in.
All in all we don't mind anyone using the land but some people abuse it. They run their trucks up it likes its the mud run at the fair and cause a lot of mess. It's this kind of behavior that ruins it for folks who want to hike, ride horses, geocache etc.
In our case, because I pay the taxes on the land I think I should be able to say who does and who doesn't use it. I don't look at the pipeline as a tenants because I get nothing from them, I see them more as squatters.
Someone places a cache on land where it is generally accepted that the public can use it by the "authority in charge" of said property, along comes someone who THINKS they should have control of it, they start complaining and whining so the cache owner removes the cache in the interest of "why fight this battle?" and this thread degrades to where it is basically stated we have ignorant cachers placing caches. WOW!!! Seems to me, that in this case, the cache placer handled this with much jurisprudence to the sport of geocaching.
I bet there could be an argument made that geocachers don't have permission for GRC's along side major routes as that area is designated as an emergency lane and geocaching rarely constitutes an emergency. Does Wal-Mart give permission for the lightpost caches? Has the FAA or NTSB cleared a crash sites for cache placement? Does the permission one obtain 1 year ago last indefinately? I guess my point here is there seems to be argument for the sake of argument. Be nice if something actually constructive came from this thread.
I have the same situation. The pipeline that crosses my property is relatively remote and must be accessed by foot/ATV/snowmobile starting about 2 miles away. That said, it's described as an easement to the U S Government (who installed the pipeline), I still retain the privilege of paying taxes. While this pipeline is very popular with hunters and snowmobilers, for the most part, the users have been responsible users. There is always the exception of course; hunters who ignore the signage stating to ask permission to hunt beyond a certain point and ATVer's who tear up the land when wet and muddy. All in all, I think the CO made the right call and is certainly being a responsible cacher.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Team Richards
[QUOTE=TRF;58260]Someone places a cache on land where it is generally accepted that the public can use it by the "authority in charge" of said property, along comes someone who THINKS they should have control of it, they start complaining and whining so the cache owner removes the cache in the interest of "why fight this battle?" and this thread degrades to where it is basically stated we have ignorant cachers placing caches. WOW!!! Seems to me, that in this case, the cache placer handled this with much jurisprudence to the sport of geocaching.
/QUOTE]
I agree I think the cache owner in this case meant no harm and handled the situation correctly.
While I think she was right to archive the cache due to the fact that trying to win one of these arguments with a landowner is never a good idea for our sport, I personally and professionally conclude she did no wrong other than to place a cache in an place where an over zealous person lives.[/QUOTE]
I don't normally quote myself, but like most others that have commented, I made it clear that I would never engage a landowner, even one that I know was wrong, in a battle over whether there is a lawful right to place a cache in any particular place...PERIOD! I've met a couple, thankfully onlly a couple, that will assert land rights where they have none and just smile and quietly move along. I would point out that there are criminal statutes in Maine that make it a crime to post somebody else's property. The idea there is that if you have no right to control a piece of land, then if you assert control you don't have then that violates the law.
But let me clear one thing up, and that's CMP land, pipelines, paper company roads, etc enjoy immunity from suit from recreational land users. This law was crafted about 20 years ago with a combined effort of the Maine Snowmobile Association, CMP and the paper industry. I was directly invovled in the discussions before the legislature. The law recognizes that these entities allow PUBLIC use of their properties for most lawful purposes but they wanted immunity from claims of recreational users that injured themselves while using the land. Rather then face closure of use, these groups convinced the legislature to bar claims from folks using their lands. This law is a broad acknowledgment that the public is allowed on their property. There are very few CMP transmission lines that are not open to the public and abutting landowners have no reserved rights to bar public use...period. I'm certain tat knows this or he wouldn't publish caches in these places.
And to return to square one, please read my quote again. Even if I knew I was correct in my right to place a cache, I wouldn't engage the landowner in a "can't win" argument. But if members here want a debate on land use and land rights, then I welcome the discussion and hope what I happen to do for a living provides some insight and is at least a little helfpul:)
I am merely trying to promote people being as sure as they can of where they are hiding any cache. I am not speaking for the cache in question because I don't know the circumstances. In the case of power/pipe lines, it'd be great if one could be sure the placement was ok with both the land owner and the utility when the cache was placed, even if that changed after time.
I think Tat and other reviewers put more trust in the cache hider than you think. Unless it's specified in the description (and then he still has to have faith you are telling the truth), he doesn't know where all boundaries are or who is in control of the piece of land a cache is on. He does know several areas which are off limits, but the rest I bet he is often placing faith in the hider.
The more informed a cache hider is of the land he is placing a cache on, the more likely an issue will not happen, or it will lessen the extent of the issue.
I do agree you don't argue with a landowner as a cache hider or hunter.
So does this mean that even though the pipeline crosses your own property, the pipeline,cmp, etc. is immune from suit, but since the property owner still owns and pays taxes on the land, are they still liable ? This liabiltiy issue has unfortunatly entered my mind when thinking about places caches on my own property. It sounds like it is just inviting an issue if someone gets hurt hunting for it. I think about that before asking anyone for permission.
The landowner liability protection law protects ALL landowners so Joe Bolrnstein will have to find a different ambulance to chase if a cacher were to be injured on your property. We have a cache placed here at our home that I wouldn't have placed but for the law and its protection.Quote:
Originally Posted by Waterski
Now I am really confused. Does that mean that someone who trips in my driveway can never sue me? ( I won't have to shovel so much then. ) What is the difference if they are on a caching mission? If this info is getting into your hourly fee, than don't respond. ha
No problem with the questions. The law protects landowners from liability for people who come onto their property for recreational activities. When the law was being debated it was initially proposed that the liability protection would only protect the landowner from claims of people who were specifically invited onto property for recreational activity, hunting, snowmobiling, ATV's hikers etc. The final law protects you from suit from people who may not have permission, ie, trespassers.
But it's all about folks doing recreational things whether invited or not, whether your land is posted or not. The intent of the law was to provide a level of comfort for folks concerned about allowing people to use their land. Without this law there would be few snowmobile trails, hiking trails and probably very restricted use of preserves and other similar properties. CMP and IP were instrumental in the law's passage as they had spent a lot of time defending BS lawsuits.
Thanks so much for that information. I have a marsh/skating pond on some land that people use, ( uninvited) and that was always a concern that they would break through the ice or something there. Also, it could be a good cache area now that you have explained the law to me. Very interesting....thanks.
Incidentally . . . I believe Florida Light and Power "owns" most of the right of way with some of the power lines in CMP's territory . . . at least this is the entity that we (the ATV Club) need to contact to get permission for routing trails.
Ownership of power line "rights of way" vary by state and utility. The power company I worked for in NY owned all the land the high voltage transmission lines were located on. Another company just got easements to build their lines. I don't know what the practice is in ME.