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I'm not trying judge anyone's actions with this post, I'm just curious about how people think the right way would be. If a cache owner hides a cache and then feels they have reason to delete the first online log, does that re-open the cache for the FTF runners? Does the original finder re-claim the right of FTF once they redo their online log in such a manner that the cache owner won't delete it again?
Just food for thought.
And on another line of thought with cache logs. I just got one for a cache that specifically stated they found the cache but didn't sign the log because they didn't have anything to write with. Would you delete such a log or just let it slide? If I remember correctly, the guidelines say you should sign the physical log as well as log it online. I edited the listing this morning to include the statement that there is no pen or pencil in the container.
As far as I'm concerned the FTF claim is up to the cacher, not the cache hider. If someone wants an official first place, they should enter a game where getting there first is the intended goal. With caching it's just an added bonus. What if it was the other way around and a marathon runner crossed the line in last place but claimed he picked the most daisies along the way?
And that's not knocking those that go for FTFs, I came close to trying to be FTF on one this morning.
Regardless, back to the original topic, if they found it first they found it first in my book.
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As far as deleting logs by non-signers - I think the nicest approach might be to send a note explaining signing the log is part of the game and proof they were there, but that you will accept a photo or description of the cache and surroundings as proof they were there this time.
You don't say why you deleted the log but I will assume that there was something in it that gave a hint or was not appropriate and not that you feel that they were not there and did not find it.
All of that said. If they were the first to sign the log in the cache then I feel that they are First To Find. Where in the on line logs a log appears does not affect who was there in what order. I have seen a lot of on entrys where the FTF was the second, third, or later entry. If I go out for a day of caching I won't log till I get home in the evening, while someone else might find a cache after me but log it at lunch time.
As for your second question.
Do you doubt that they found it? Contact them and ask for a description of the cache and location.
I prefer to trust that people are honest and would not delete the log.
I cannot believe what I am reading here Dave! A Zebra can change his stripes!Quote:
Originally Posted by brdad
PS - Way to go on the new thought!
Heh, it's not a new thought, just one that doesn't happen often. You'll be even more surprised to know Lee and I recently drove 120 miles to be FTF on a frickin' nano! (We were successful)Quote:
Originally Posted by Gob-ler
Kev, I would suggest this to cache owners that are going to delete a log, put exactly how you want the logs signed. What you except in the log. How long the log will have to be to be excepted. And what you want them to say. If a cache owner is going to be that particular then tell people before hand what is expected of the finder.
I am sure that will be considered additional logging requirements, and as everyone should know that is not allowed. If then the log is deleted the cache should be too.
Attitudes and this foolish FTF junk aside, caches are placed for the enjoyment of the finders. Not everyone likes, is capable, or has the same emphasis on logging. So what? You get what the finder sees fit to write and that is all that can be expected. Deleting a log because you don't like what someone wrote or didn't say enough good things about the cache or give enough praise to the owner is ridiculous and against good caching etiquette.
I don't think you've ever made so much sense!Quote:
Originally Posted by Ekidokai
But don't let it go to your head...
I have one word for you.Quote:
Originally Posted by brdad
Sabby, it wasn't my cache that the log got deleted from. I just happened to see things as they occurred and was curious about what others thought. I've seen logs that ran the gamut from a simple :) to an elaborate log on the few caches we've placed, JustPJ66 and I. I've yet to see reason or have cause to delete a log other than the ones that were done by the hacker who didn't visit any caches, just logged tons of them.
I suspect, on the second, that they found it and haven't even contacted them at all. Probably won't, in this circumstance, because I had failed to put in the listing there was no pen/pencil in the cache. Live and learn on my part.
We haven't done any where near as much caching this year as we did last, haven't even done 100 where we nearly did 500 last year. We aren't as worried over who finds ours and how they log. I did, however, e-mail one cacher who signed the physical log in a cache of mine and never logged it online. He finally logged it a couple days back.
Scary isn't it. No offense mike.Quote:
Originally Posted by brdad
Bad assumption on my part. SorryQuote:
it wasn't my cache that the log got deleted from
No problem.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sabby
You get the same word.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mainiac1957
Got an e-mail from a Canadian cacher who asked if he could log Attean View because he scoured the area and was unable to find a magnetic cache. I had to tell him that I might have allowed a log if they had found the container but either couldn't retrieve the container from it's location or couldn't get it open but not if they simply couldn't find the cache. If the cache is missing, yet again, we'll have to replace the container. If it gets muggled again it might be a case of time to consider moving the cache or simply archiving the location.
Sooooo, what the word E ??? Did you log it here yet? :D
The moderators will not let it through.Quote:
Originally Posted by Waterski
If I was the first one to sign a NEW cache as the FTF and found out that when I went home to log it that someone else had "claimed" to fine it first, but did not sign it, I would think it would be the first to log it in the log book, that's why the log book is there.
Ya bob I am with you on this one...imagine it we AGREE on something hehe
I have heard of second to finders ripping the front page out of a log book so it looks like they are FTF. It's really sad what some people will do for a FTF, or just any smiley for that matter.
That would be a log I would delete. I would also remove their entry from the paper log.Quote:
Originally Posted by brdad
I'm a firm believer in sign the log, it's a find, so I probably would not delete the online or paper log. I don't think cache owners should delete valid find logs. But if I was given proof by the real FTF'er I'd let the offender know just how childish he was. But it would be outside of the cache logs, way too many grievances have been aired out lately in cache logs IMO.Quote:
Originally Posted by JustKev
But how would you know which one was telling the truth. Ether one could have riped out the page and started a new one.Quote:
Originally Posted by JustKev
We typically use a log that has a place for "FTF". If that page is missing I would remove the first log on the next page if it coincided with the logs online. IMHO, anyone who would destroy even one page in a logbook doesn't deserve the find, period.Quote:
Originally Posted by rcwhit