GeoTrails & GeoTrash

NativeMainer brought to light an interesting comment in another thread and suggested it be it's own thread....the quote is: If you look past the tirade, FD does make a couple of points, such as the creation of geotrails and geotrash (which should be another topic)....in which the discussion was about a blogger destroying caches and thereby saving the entire world from ourselves. Well, good idea NativeMainer. GeoTrails and GeoTrash. Got any stories? Got any pet peeves? Got any solutions? Got an opinion.....whoa....just answered my own question on that one :). Here's mine:

Recently, a cache was placed in the Bangor-Brewer area that had a higher difficulty rating. And after the oohing and oh-ing went on and on, I went myself and of course didn't find it. It's not unusual for me to not DNF a cache initially....after all....I'm not done looking for it yet. Upon returning a week later to look again, I was amazed and saddened to see the effect that cachers had on the area. GZ is, essentially, the terminus of a parking lot. And, GZ had been really trampled and torn up, vegetation destroyed, tree limbs removed and a fence nearly knocked over. Certainly a property owner considering cache permission that would have seen this would most likely decline. Now, we've all seen geotrails but this went way too far. I've mentioned before and will proffer my opinion yet again: We as cachers and cache placers must be responsible cachers. Often being responsible means angering others; if you can't figure out what responsible is, find a mentor. OR....maybe you shouldn't be caching.

I do think some people get overly upset over geo-trails. I'm not convinced that geo-trails are any more harmful than animal trails. And, perhaps the trails benefit some of the woodland creatures by providing access paths or opening the area up a bit for food sources.

Still, it is best we do our best to minimize any traces, and destruction of a cache area is always unfortunate. There are many times we come across cache locations that we are 99% sure were unreasonably damaged by our fellow cachers.

Turning over logs in the middle of the woods - probably not so bad in my book, other then leaving evidence we were there. Tearing apart landowner's property like his rock wall or fence - not s good. Just remember, sometimes the landowner considers the log on his property as dead as his rock wall or his fence.

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Originally Posted by brdad

I do think some people get overly upset over geo-trails. I'm not convinced that geo-trails are any more harmful than animal trails.

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Thinking of another thread that talks about caches with deliberately incorrect coordinates to "make the find harder"...

Some of the worst geotrails we've seen lately were where the coordinates were off quite a bit, and a number of cachers had been searching near "ground zero", i.e., rocks turned over, stumps torn apart, ground well tromped on, etc. :(:(

I have only a handful of caches hidden in rock walls and I made them easy and give a very specific hint on each so that rock walls don't get ripped apart. Personally, rock wall caches without hints or with a bunch of rocks that have to removed to find the cache are a bad idea and an invitation to have the wall damaged or destroyed.

Geo-trails are the reason the ATC doesn't allow caches on the AT. The Stud Mill Road caches are a lot easier to find now that a pile of cachers have gone after them, but that's in the wilderness and the impact is minimal. Any new trail system will actually be improved as it "ages" and the foot traffic better defines the route.

Caches in trash? Sheesh. There was one in Lewiston hidden in a discarded tire by a bunch of students!!!! Not one to be shy and bearing in the mind thatthe container was ruined I was one of many that suggested archiving and tat eventually gave that one the hook.

Great thread, Paul and another reminder to play nice on other folks land!

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Originally Posted by WhereRWe?

Thinking of another thread that talks about caches with deliberately incorrect coordinates to "make the find harder"...

Some of the worst geotrails we've seen lately were where the coordinates were off quite a bit, and a number of cachers had been searching near "ground zero", i.e., rocks turned over, stumps torn apart, ground well tromped on, etc. :(:(

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Makes sense, the longer cachers have to search, the more places they get and the more desperate they become. Regarding my animal part of the comment, however, I have seen areas torn up by turkeys, bears, and other critters, too. Funny how we say that is "just natural", as if humans are not part of nature. We do, however, have the power of reason and knowledge to know what's going on a bit more than animals do.

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Originally Posted by brdad

We do, however, have the power of reason and knowledge to know what's going on a bit more than animals do.

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Sheesh! You really think so? :confused::confused:

I know of one hider that buried a cache, listed hints that made no sense, then posted that he did not want the area torn up.

If you leave bad coordinates purposely or not, the area will get trampled and things will get disturbed. No matter how careful a person is.

If you make a cache really hard to find, again the area will get disturbed. There just is no way around it that I can see.

Now I know that some people are a lot more careful than others, but if the coordinates are off, the hints don't work, the hide is really hard, or buried, things will get disturbed.

I, for one find that on the hard to find ones, I'll come out of the area with much more trash than on a quick find.

There is no reason to unnecessarily tear up vegetation, break branches and the such, but when you find a cache in a log, under a log, under or in a rock, drilled into the end of a branch, disguised to look like the end of a branch. Then the hard ones without good hints will get the area disturbed.

one of our caches is in a "sensitive " nature area and so we placed our caches in areas that were not going to be effected by any possible geotrail...we also stated in the cache discription that cachers should stay on the trail ...although we cannot guarrentee all will do that we did ask that they did and so far everyone who had gone and done them has played by the rules....MOST cacher will respect any specific guidelines the cache hider puts in front of them...there are always exceptions but most will follow the rules of the area if told ahead of time. or at least that has been my experience.

I have one pet peeve regarding hiding caches. A few people will pick an area that is trashy to begin with and then ask the cachers to do some CITO in the area . I say do the CITO in the area before you hide it there and then they can see how nice an area it is afterwards. Don't expect others to do the dirty work for you when you should have done it to begin with.

While I do have an issue with caches in trash or trashy areas (I once found a cache in Bangor, lodged in a water filled tire teaming with mosquito larva. I called the cache "Dante's 5th level of hell" in the log :rolleyes:) I'm going out on a limb here with geotrails. Don't care. While I 100% agree that we should take all due care with other peoples property and that tearing up a rock wall is the acme of foolishness, leaving trails on the ground happens. How often? I walked the perimeter of the field behind my parents house in Hampden this weekend. I counted 6 deer trails in a 30 foot section. 2 of which were beaten right down to the mud. (and the neighbor has a nice new treestand facing them.) Trails happen, and my guess is that the deer simply don't care. Trails have happened since the beginning of time. We are not in the Tundra, where wagon trails from the 1800's still remain. We are in Maine. My guess is that there is more area paved over for empty big box store parking lots in Bangor than all of the geotrails combined. There has been controversy about ATV trails, snowmobile trails, the Appalachian trail, ect. Me? I'm comfortable with my "footprint". As for trash, nothing drives me up the wall faster than going a few feet off the road, looking down an embankment and finding old TV's, mattresses, ect. While I understand that it's hard for some folks to pay for disposal of heavy waste (My school district is storing old computers on a broken down bus because we don't have disposal fee's in the budget, and it would cost thousands), There has got to be a better way.

:eek::eek::eek: Wow, I had not idea I felt this way until I started typing. Sorry if I came off as "Toolish" :D:D:D:D:D (Kidding)

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Originally Posted by fins2right

While I do have an issue with caches in trash or trashy areas (I once found a cache in Bangor, lodged in a water filled tire teaming with mosquito larva. I called the cache "Dante's 5th level of hell" in the log :rolleyes:) I'm going out on a limb here with geotrails. Don't care. While I 100% agree that we should take all due care with other peoples property and that tearing up a rock wall is the acme of foolishness, leaving trails on the ground happens. How often? I walked the perimeter of the field behind my parents house in Hampden this weekend. I counted 6 deer trails in a 30 foot section. 2 of which were beaten right down to the mud. (and the neighbor has a nice new treestand facing them.) Trails happen, and my guess is that the deer simply don't care. Trails have happened since the beginning of time. We are not in the Tundra, where wagon trails from the 1800's still remain. We are in Maine. My guess is that there is more area paved over for empty big box store parking lots in Bangor than all of the geotrails combined. There has been controversy about ATV trails, snowmobile trails, the Appalachian trail, ect. Me? I'm comfortable with my "footprint". As for trash, nothing drives me up the wall faster than going a few feet off the road, looking down an embankment and finding old TV's, mattresses, ect. While I understand that it's hard for some folks to pay for disposal of heavy waste (My school district is storing old computers on a broken down bus because we don't have disposal fee's in the budget, and it would cost thousands), There has got to be a better way.

:eek::eek::eek: Wow, I had not idea I felt this way until I started typing. Sorry if I came off as "Toolish" :D:D:D:D:D (Kidding)

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We agree more than not. Trails happen, I'm fine with that. However, I do take issue when someone else's property is damaged or destroyed all in the name of "making the find". The excuse "Oh, it's vacant, it's no big deal" doesn't cut it with me.

Yeah....how does one CITO out a full size couch out of the woods...far enough in that it took me 15 minutes to walk in. Go figure.

Again....I defer to responsible caching.

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Originally Posted by pm28570

Yeah....how does one CITO out a full size couch out of the woods...far enough in that it took me 15 minutes to walk in. Go figure.

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Remind me to call you next time i move!

I have a personal policy on woods hides. I try to pass this along to those I cache with. Concerning hides in a wooded area, if it doesn't look like it hasn't been moved then the cache is not likely there. This applies to rocks, logs, stumps, etc. Step back and look for what is out of place. Many times I trust the hiders GPS as well as my own to having good coords. Not always the case as we all know. At which time you usually have to expand the search area.

On one of my Rt 2 Tour caches the cache was in the top of a tall stump. Went to check on it recently and the stump was beaten down to the ground. Wow! Was that necessary? It was a good sized container and sitting right in the top. This is one of the reasons I can't stand these so called evil hides of micros in the woods. Taking a film can and putting it on one of a hundred possible locations. Some people are going to get frustrated and tear things up. I personally don't cache that way. I get frustrated and log my DNF. I hate DNF's but they are just part of the game. OK there is my rant of the day.

Brad has this 100% right. If it's a micro in the woods and not obvious, I personally believe the cache placer should "average" it for a solid 5 minutes and give a solid hint that even a lawyer will understand!:)

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Originally Posted by Mainiac1957

I have a personal policy on woods hides. I try to pass this along to those I cache with. Concerning hides in a wooded area, if it doesn't look like it hasn't been moved then the cache is not likely there. This applies to rocks, logs, stumps, etc. Step back and look for what is out of place. Many times I trust the hiders GPS as well as my own to having good coords. Not always the case as we all know. At which time you usually have to expand the search area.

On one of my Rt 2 Tour caches the cache was in the top of a tall stump. Went to check on it recently and the stump was beaten down to the ground. Wow! Was that necessary? It was a good sized container and sitting right in the top. This is one of the reasons I can't stand these so called evil hides of micros in the woods. Taking a film can and putting it on one of a hundred possible locations. Some people are going to get frustrated and tear things up. I personally don't cache that way. I get frustrated and log my DNF. I hate DNF's but they are just part of the game. OK there is my rant of the day.

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Originally Posted by dubord207

Brad has this 100% right. If it's a micro in the woods and not obvious, I personally believe the cache placer should "average" it for a solid 5 minutes and give a solid hint that even a lawyer will understand!:)

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WOW that would have to be some hint!

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Originally Posted by Mainiac1957

On one of my Rt 2 Tour caches the cache was in the top of a tall stump. Went to check on it recently and the stump was beaten down to the ground. Wow! Was that necessary? It was a good sized container and sitting right in the top. This is one of the reasons I can't stand these so called evil hides of micros in the woods. Taking a film can and putting it on one of a hundred possible locations. Some people are going to get frustrated and tear things up. I personally don't cache that way. I get frustrated and log my DNF. I hate DNF's but they are just part of the game. OK there is my rant of the day.

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Illustrates my point. And.....rant away, Brad. Always enjoy your posts and point of views.

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Originally Posted by WhereRWe?

Thinking of another thread that talks about caches with deliberately incorrect coordinates to "make the find harder"...

Some of the worst geotrails we've seen lately were where the coordinates were off quite a bit, and a number of cachers had been searching near "ground zero", i.e., rocks turned over, stumps torn apart, ground well tromped on, etc. :(:(

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This is a little bit of a pet peeve of mine. Placer wants a "difficult to find" or mischievous cache but doesn't have enough creativity to fashion one. So, next best thing.....inaccurate coords. Yeah....ok. "You sure fooled me".

When I see this written, I'm reminded of a comment Gob-bler made a while back.....and I may be para-phrasing....."People place caches to be found". I think that sums it up.

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Originally Posted by WhereRWe?

Thinking of another thread that talks about caches with deliberately incorrect coordinates to "make the find harder"...

Some of the worst geotrails we've seen lately were where the coordinates were off quite a bit, and a number of cachers had been searching near "ground zero", i.e., rocks turned over, stumps torn apart, ground well tromped on, etc. :(:(

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I have a "hide in plain sight" cache Hidden on one side of the middle of a bridge that is on a country dirt road.
I deliberately took the coords in the center of the bridge, so whichever side you are on, your GPSr points to the other side. Did I say it's a 4 difficulty?
No geo-trail there or damage to the bridge either........Is this wrong?

I was surprised when , a couple of months ago, I wrote that I had a cache where I put incorrect coords! I expected more flac or questions. Serious Tool made a comment and then nothing...... till now.
I feel better now!:)

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Originally Posted by Mapachi

I have a "hide in plain sight" cache Hidden on one side of the middle of a bridge that is on a country dirt road.
I deliberately took the coords in the center of the bridge, so whichever side you are on, your GPSr points to the other side. Did I say it's a 4 difficulty?
No geo-trail there or damage to the bridge either........Is this wrong?

I was surprised when , a couple of months ago, I wrote that I had a cache where I put incorrect coords! I expected more flac or questions. Serious Tool made a comment and then nothing...... till now.
I feel better now!:)

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You're just a rebel, aren't you? :)

I would never hide a cache with the coords off by 60 feet! Least wise not intentionally!
The bridge cache (Bend in the 7) is off by 6 feet (with-in parameters)
I'll give a hint...It's on the left side depending which direction you are headed!

Now I got it.

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Originally Posted by Mapachi

I would never hide a cache with the coords off by 60 feet! Least wise not intentionally!
The bridge cache (Bend in the 7) is off by 6 feet (with-in parameters)
I'll give a hint...It's on the left side depending which direction you are headed!

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If I'm headed this way, would it be on my left or right?

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Originally Posted by JustKev

If I'm headed this way, would it be on my left or right?

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If you are headed this way it's on the left, if you're headed that way it's on your right!:rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Mapachi

If you are headed this way it's on the left, if you're headed that way it's on your right!:rolleyes:

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.....thought so.

Mapachi are you a politician? ( moderate- middle of teh roader) if not you should be.

Pat is somewhat right of center, maybe right of Atilla the Hun!:)

I think we would/will get along

I'm so far right I agree with Serious Tool! (on political matters)
I miss Dubaya!

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Originally Posted by Mainiac1957

This is one of the reasons I can't stand these so called evil hides of micros in the woods. Taking a film can and putting it on one of a hundred possible locations. Some people are going to get frustrated and tear things up.

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Agree 100%

Maybe Chadd is going to become a part of your family? I'm fairly sure Bobbi and Chadd would be a formidable "team" caching together!:D

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Originally Posted by Mapachi

I'm so far right I agree with Serious Tool! (on political matters)
I miss Dubaya!

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It seems to me those " forrest defenders " while taking a cache to "protect" a fragile area could be doing more damage by makeing others, not everyone, look under every thing and tromp all over the place looking for something that is no longer there. If they used there brains,as if they have any, they would just unhide the cache and make it so easy for people to see that nothing happen short of just walking in and out of the area. I hope I'm not giving them any idea's. I have only been geocaching since this spring and I know I have to figure out how to find a micro ( I did find 3 last week or the week before) but they tend to kick my rear. Parker Pond Boat launch----- someday---someday........... I have sat on that rock and looked for any thing out of place twice and am giving my self one more trip before logging as a DNF.
What was some one earlier saying about drilling holes in limb's ? never thought to look for that type thing. Now I really have to start expanding my searches. thanks.

Perhaps if these people left a note like the GEM Police do, finders would be aware the cache was not there, thus preserving the location. :rolleyes:

http://www.geocachingmaine.org/forum...1&d=1287255886

wow they are mean in that state aint they!

OMG! I just submitted 5 more for publication! I'm way over the 10 cache limit, but........I have a special dispensation from the Pope!

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Originally Posted by JustPJ66

wow they are mean in that state aint they!

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I actually like the way this guy or group thinks, but taking making up your own rules and enforcing them as law is not the right thing to do.

Otherwise, I'd be the chief of the Maine patrol! :D:D:D

Dan, you have the right to remain silent. Any talk of micros or series caches will be used against you in geocourt.
I sentence you to one year of PQ-less caching for each cache over 10! lol

I'm not sure that would last long up here. People get lost a lot up here.