Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 21

Thread: RE: OT . . . Engineered wood floor

Hybrid View

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Unity, Maine
    Posts
    3,866

    Default RE: OT . . . Engineered wood floor

    I've purchased an engineered wood floor (plywood with wood veneer) for my living room . . . due to the fact that I needed a thin wood vs. thicker wood floor and I got a good deal at "Mah-dens."

    My question for anyone in the know . . . the manufacturer doesn't recommend installing this on particle board . . . well nailing it or stapling it . . . which of course is what my 1970s vintage house has for a subfloor. I would rather not rip up the particle board and replace it . . . and simply throwing a layer of plywood on top of this floor will not work due to short ceiling heights and a tall grandfather clock.

    So here's the gist of my question . . . or maybe it's questions . . . so far all I can tell is that particle board is not recommended subfloor material due to possible concerns with its holding power for nails and the possibility of swelling due to moisture. To my knowledge this floor has been down since the house was built in the mid-1970s and it shows no sign of swelling and ripping out the carpet tacks and staples was a bugger . . . which makes me wonder if the particle board might be OK to staple the engineered floor . . . or would I be better off gluing it down (I could go the floating floor route, but most floating floors I have seen have a cheap feel to them as they don't feel very "solid".)

    Any suggestions? Staple 'er down and don't worry about it? Glue down? Float 'er and be safe?
    "Courage is not the absence of fear, but the realization that there is something more important than fear."

    "Death is only one of many ways to die."

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Bangor, ME
    Posts
    3,961

    Default

    glue em, then nail em, then weld em down.


    (does this mean were gunna have a "tear up jakes floor party" ???)
    Once the game is over, the king and the pawn go back in the same box.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Unity, Maine
    Posts
    3,866

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Hiram357 View Post
    glue em, then nail em, then weld em down.


    (does this mean were gunna have a "tear up jakes floor party" ???)
    Don't cha remember . . . we already tore up the old carpeting and carpet pad. It's still sitting on the front lawn . . . I keep hoping someone will come along and decide that they really need an old mint green carpet for their house.
    "Courage is not the absence of fear, but the realization that there is something more important than fear."

    "Death is only one of many ways to die."

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    abbot me
    Posts
    754

    Default

    Jake you probably don't have particle board in the sense the manufacturers of your engineer floor are talking. What I would assume they are worried about is the stuff you find in house trailers. Spill a glass of water on it and it swells to a foot thick. I would think you have some form of loose strand board if it's your sub floor. Is it tongue and groove jointed, can you see strands of wood or is it more like sawdust? Particle board when dry is hard as a rock and will crumble into sawdust if you can get at an edge with a hammer. Nails when pulled out of particle board usually tear out a chuck of material with the nail.

    What you could do is run a garden hose on the floor for a hour or so and see what happens.

    My son Paul and I have been installing quite a few of the so called floating floors and so far they are all doing great. Easy to do, hold up well to traffic, come in a variety of patterns, can't beat it.

    As far as your floor is concerned, try driving a nail that is to be use with the engineered flooring into your sub floor, see how it holds. If it holds ok and the floor hasn't swelled since 1970, then I would say go ahead and install it.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    Bethel, Connecticut
    Posts
    6

    Default

    I sell lumber and hardwood flooring. You couldn't have done hardwood any thinner than 5/8", and even at 5/8" you risk snapping the groove. Most floors are 3/4". Liquid Nails is perfect for gluing down flooring, but let me run this question past my boss in the morning. After he scoffs and laughs at me for mentioning engineered flooring, I'll make him answer me, and get back to you. Usually, installers will glue and blind nail them on the tongue. I take it there is no radiant heat underneath? No pipes to worry about?

    With wood, you want the substrate and the floorboards to be no more than 10% different in moisture content, if the back of the engineered floor is wood too (even plywood) let them acclimate in the room first, which by now is probably already done. The key to gluing is the substrate has to be CLEAN, CLEAN, CLEAN! Don't let any glue come up between, and don't let dust and debris get into the glue, or underneath.

    At the risk of sounding like an ad, this is good info. If you go to our website, there are links to a lot of information about woods, and wood products, like the National Hardwood Flooring Association, etc, and there is probably something in there about engineered woods.
    www.kellogghardwoods.com is where I work.

    Planet (from CT)

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Unity, Maine
    Posts
    3,866

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Planet View Post
    I sell lumber and hardwood flooring. You couldn't have done hardwood any thinner than 5/8", and even at 5/8" you risk snapping the groove. Most floors are 3/4". Liquid Nails is perfect for gluing down flooring, but let me run this question past my boss in the morning. After he scoffs and laughs at me for mentioning engineered flooring, I'll make him answer me, and get back to you. Usually, installers will glue and blind nail them on the tongue. I take it there is no radiant heat underneath? No pipes to worry about?

    With wood, you want the substrate and the floorboards to be no more than 10% different in moisture content, if the back of the engineered floor is wood too (even plywood) let them acclimate in the room first, which by now is probably already done. The key to gluing is the substrate has to be CLEAN, CLEAN, CLEAN! Don't let any glue come up between, and don't let dust and debris get into the glue, or underneath.

    At the risk of sounding like an ad, this is good info. If you go to our website, there are links to a lot of information about woods, and wood products, like the National Hardwood Flooring Association, etc, and there is probably something in there about engineered woods.
    www.kellogghardwoods.com is where I work.

    Planet (from CT)
    Good stuff . . . thanks for the response.

    I don't have the product in front of me, but I would guess that it's 3/8-5/8 inches in depth . . . as I said, plywood with a thin veneer on top. The manufacturer's instructions specifically state it can be stapled, glued or floated . . . I would prefer stapling for the ease and solid feel that I am hoping to achieve with this flooring.

    If I go with Plan B and glue it down I would most likely follow the manufacturer's instructions and trowel the glue, lay down the flooring and roll the floor.

    There is no radiant heat underneath . . . baseboard heat and a woodstove in the room which provides radiant heat.

    Acclimated the wood . . . check . . . I knew to do that.

    Thanks again for the reply . . . I've got some out-laws down your way . . . how close to you, I'm not sure . . . mother-in-law lives in Ellington and my brother-in-law/sledding partner (currently he has three sleds stored at my house vs. my single sled) lives in Stafford Springs (home to some pretty good pizza by the way at the SS House of Pizza.)
    "Courage is not the absence of fear, but the realization that there is something more important than fear."

    "Death is only one of many ways to die."

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Maine
    Posts
    1,972

    Thumbs up Vic's right

    The manufacturer will not recommend particle board for 2 reasons. First there are many variations of the product out there and 2, particle board is NOT a stable material suitable for wood flooring of any type. Even laminate, engineered, and real hardwood strip flooring. It will be up to you to examine the subfloor to see if YOU think it will be suitable. Once you lay the flooring do not go back to the manufacturer for a warranty. Looking at where you bought it, you already know you will be getting a warranty anyways. DO NOT GLUE IT DOWN!! EVER!! Not in a older house such as yours. Trust me on this one. Try to staple it and see if they hold. Your older house is going to be moving during the seasons, ( no not to Florida for the winter), and that movement in the floors would buckle the flooring if you glue it down. And that would destroy all of your hard work. At least if you nail it you might get a few pops but after snagging your socks on them just simply re-set them. The only approved subflooring would be a BC grade plywood, at least 4 layers, or 5/8" thick. Lay the plywood down with the voids toward the joists so the top layer is smooth. Or as we say......Clean, flat and level. And do not forget to acclamate the flooring in the room you will be installing it in for at least 72 hours before installing it.

    Hope this helps.
    Why not live life like it is your last day....instead of pretending to be a member of the Peter Pan Club and believing you will be around forever.

  8. #8

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Team2hunt View Post
    The manufacturer will not recommend particle board for 2 reasons. First there are many variations of the product out there and 2, particle board is NOT a stable material suitable for wood flooring of any type. Even laminate, engineered, and real hardwood strip flooring. It will be up to you to examine the subfloor to see if YOU think it will be suitable. Once you lay the flooring do not go back to the manufacturer for a warranty. Looking at where you bought it, you already know you will be getting a warranty anyways. DO NOT GLUE IT DOWN!! EVER!! Not in a older house such as yours. Trust me on this one. Try to staple it and see if they hold. Your older house is going to be moving during the seasons, ( no not to Florida for the winter), and that movement in the floors would buckle the flooring if you glue it down. And that would destroy all of your hard work. At least if you nail it you might get a few pops but after snagging your socks on them just simply re-set them. The only approved subflooring would be a BC grade plywood, at least 4 layers, or 5/8" thick. Lay the plywood down with the voids toward the joists so the top layer is smooth. Or as we say......Clean, flat and level. And do not forget to acclamate the flooring in the room you will be installing it in for at least 72 hours before installing it.

    Hope this helps.
    I AGREE ALL THE WAY.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Unity, Maine
    Posts
    3,866

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Team2hunt View Post
    The manufacturer will not recommend particle board for 2 reasons. First there are many variations of the product out there and 2, particle board is NOT a stable material suitable for wood flooring of any type. Even laminate, engineered, and real hardwood strip flooring. It will be up to you to examine the subfloor to see if YOU think it will be suitable. Once you lay the flooring do not go back to the manufacturer for a warranty. Looking at where you bought it, you already know you will be getting a warranty anyways. DO NOT GLUE IT DOWN!! EVER!! Not in a older house such as yours. Trust me on this one. Try to staple it and see if they hold. Your older house is going to be moving during the seasons, ( no not to Florida for the winter), and that movement in the floors would buckle the flooring if you glue it down. And that would destroy all of your hard work. At least if you nail it you might get a few pops but after snagging your socks on them just simply re-set them. The only approved subflooring would be a BC grade plywood, at least 4 layers, or 5/8" thick. Lay the plywood down with the voids toward the joists so the top layer is smooth. Or as we say......Clean, flat and level. And do not forget to acclamate the flooring in the room you will be installing it in for at least 72 hours before installing it.

    Hope this helps.
    Wow . . . good stuff Gary . . . very helpful and very reassuring. One might actually think you work at a large hardware store dealing with large volumes of wood flooring even.

    You've confirmed something my very wise wife suggested might be true . . . all particle board might not be created equal. As I mentioned in another post the particle board I have shows some evidence of water with watermarks (most likely from carpet shampooing over the years and one spot where a design flaw with a bad foyer allowed water to leak into the house for years) and yet the wood shows absolutely zero signs of swelling or deterioration (i.e. delaminating into a crumbly pile of sawdust). What you've said leads me to think that I might have got a bit of luck and the former homeowners might have not bought the cheaper stuff which I have personally seen swell up with the slightest amount of water, disintegrate into a pile of sawdust, etc.

    Since this area will not be shampooed, we don't track in stuff (shoes go off in the mudroom . . . I even make Hiram and Medawisla do so when they visit since they've now been to our house several times and are no longer considered guests, but part of the family ) and the faulty foyer has been fixed I'm thinking that short of a flood moisture issues may not be a problem with this subfloor. In addition, I'm thinking putting a sealant down might also be a good idea as some added insurance.

    You convinced me on the glue deal . . . I think I might try Vic and your suggestion to try stapling the floor down and see how it holds. Based on the fact that it took Hiram and I some work to remove the carpet tacks and my wife is still working hard at digging out regular ol' staples from where the former owners stapled down the carpet pad I'm thinking the holding power might be OK as well . . . providing I don't have to rip up the flooring at a later date since I suspect that would cause the particle board to no longer be any good.

    Acclimation . . . check. I've been letting the wood acclimate in the house for over a week now . . . I talk to it occasionally, pat it's glossy finish . . . you know just to make it feel at home.

    Manufacturer warranty . . . as you might have surmised buying this stuff at "Mah-dens" basically means there is no manufacturer warranty which I realized from the get-go. Couldn't pass up the wicked good price though . . . for the price I couldn't have even bought mid-priced laminate, much less paid for pricier wood flooring.

    Subfloor . . . if this was me and I was building a home today there is no way I would ever go with particle board in a home . . . I detest the stuff for many, many reasons . . . definitely plywood or possibly Advantek OSB (which is what a contractor used when we fixed the leaky foyer.)
    "Courage is not the absence of fear, but the realization that there is something more important than fear."

    "Death is only one of many ways to die."

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Bangor, ME
    Posts
    3,961

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by vicbiker View Post
    Jake you probably don't have particle board in the sense the manufacturers of your engineer floor are talking. What I would assume they are worried about is the stuff you find in house trailers. Spill a glass of water on it and it swells to a foot thick.

    nope, that's the kinda stuff he has, and you can see the areas that have swelled from water damage.
    Once the game is over, the king and the pawn go back in the same box.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •