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Thread: Newbie question

  1. #21
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Hampden, ME
    Posts
    891

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    I have the same situation. The pipeline that crosses my property is relatively remote and must be accessed by foot/ATV/snowmobile starting about 2 miles away. That said, it's described as an easement to the U S Government (who installed the pipeline), I still retain the privilege of paying taxes. While this pipeline is very popular with hunters and snowmobilers, for the most part, the users have been responsible users. There is always the exception of course; hunters who ignore the signage stating to ask permission to hunt beyond a certain point and ATVer's who tear up the land when wet and muddy. All in all, I think the CO made the right call and is certainly being a responsible cacher.

    Quote Originally Posted by Team Richards View Post
    I just want to point out the "most cases" part. I am not looking at this pointing out, or pointing at any cacher, this is just information.
    We have a pipeline that runs across our propery. we get no money or benifit of any kind from this pipeline. We are required to allow access to the pipeline company 24/7/365, we also have to allow them the right to maintain the pipeline (which means they can cut a 50 foot path for a 12 inch pipe.)
    The pipe was there when we bought the land so we had no say in it. According to the previous land owner neither did they when the pipe went in.
    All in all we don't mind anyone using the land but some people abuse it. They run their trucks up it likes its the mud run at the fair and cause a lot of mess. It's this kind of behavior that ruins it for folks who want to hike, ride horses, geocache etc.
    In our case, because I pay the taxes on the land I think I should be able to say who does and who doesn't use it. I don't look at the pipeline as a tenants because I get nothing from them, I see them more as squatters.
    Everyone has the right to be an idiot at times. Just don't abuse the privilege.

  2. #22
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    New Gloucester, Me
    Posts
    300

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    [QUOTE=TRF;58260]Someone places a cache on land where it is generally accepted that the public can use it by the "authority in charge" of said property, along comes someone who THINKS they should have control of it, they start complaining and whining so the cache owner removes the cache in the interest of "why fight this battle?" and this thread degrades to where it is basically stated we have ignorant cachers placing caches. WOW!!! Seems to me, that in this case, the cache placer handled this with much jurisprudence to the sport of geocaching.
    /QUOTE]

    I agree I think the cache owner in this case meant no harm and handled the situation correctly.

  3. #23
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    So. China Maine
    Posts
    1,588

    Default One more tiime, with feeling!

    While I think she was right to archive the cache due to the fact that trying to win one of these arguments with a landowner is never a good idea for our sport, I personally and professionally conclude she did no wrong other than to place a cache in an place where an over zealous person lives.[/QUOTE]


    I don't normally quote myself, but like most others that have commented, I made it clear that I would never engage a landowner, even one that I know was wrong, in a battle over whether there is a lawful right to place a cache in any particular place...PERIOD! I've met a couple, thankfully onlly a couple, that will assert land rights where they have none and just smile and quietly move along. I would point out that there are criminal statutes in Maine that make it a crime to post somebody else's property. The idea there is that if you have no right to control a piece of land, then if you assert control you don't have then that violates the law.

    But let me clear one thing up, and that's CMP land, pipelines, paper company roads, etc enjoy immunity from suit from recreational land users. This law was crafted about 20 years ago with a combined effort of the Maine Snowmobile Association, CMP and the paper industry. I was directly invovled in the discussions before the legislature. The law recognizes that these entities allow PUBLIC use of their properties for most lawful purposes but they wanted immunity from claims of recreational users that injured themselves while using the land. Rather then face closure of use, these groups convinced the legislature to bar claims from folks using their lands. This law is a broad acknowledgment that the public is allowed on their property. There are very few CMP transmission lines that are not open to the public and abutting landowners have no reserved rights to bar public use...period. I'm certain tat knows this or he wouldn't publish caches in these places.

    And to return to square one, please read my quote again. Even if I knew I was correct in my right to place a cache, I wouldn't engage the landowner in a "can't win" argument. But if members here want a debate on land use and land rights, then I welcome the discussion and hope what I happen to do for a living provides some insight and is at least a little helfpul
    Sometimes the road less traveled is less traveled for a reason.

  4. #24
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Bangor, ME
    Posts
    6,059

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    I am merely trying to promote people being as sure as they can of where they are hiding any cache. I am not speaking for the cache in question because I don't know the circumstances. In the case of power/pipe lines, it'd be great if one could be sure the placement was ok with both the land owner and the utility when the cache was placed, even if that changed after time.

    I think Tat and other reviewers put more trust in the cache hider than you think. Unless it's specified in the description (and then he still has to have faith you are telling the truth), he doesn't know where all boundaries are or who is in control of the piece of land a cache is on. He does know several areas which are off limits, but the rest I bet he is often placing faith in the hider.

    The more informed a cache hider is of the land he is placing a cache on, the more likely an issue will not happen, or it will lessen the extent of the issue.

    I do agree you don't argue with a landowner as a cache hider or hunter.
    DNFTT! DNFTT! DNFTT!

    "The funniest thing about this particular signature is that by the time you realize it doesn't say anything it's to late to stop reading it..."

  5. #25
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Rockland Me
    Posts
    436

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    So does this mean that even though the pipeline crosses your own property, the pipeline,cmp, etc. is immune from suit, but since the property owner still owns and pays taxes on the land, are they still liable ? This liabiltiy issue has unfortunatly entered my mind when thinking about places caches on my own property. It sounds like it is just inviting an issue if someone gets hurt hunting for it. I think about that before asking anyone for permission.

  6. #26
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    So. China Maine
    Posts
    1,588

    Default Immunity from suit

    Quote Originally Posted by Waterski View Post
    So does this mean that even though the pipeline crosses your own property, the pipeline,cmp, etc. is immune from suit, but since the property owner still owns and pays taxes on the land, are they still liable ? This liabiltiy issue has unfortunatly entered my mind when thinking about places caches on my own property. It sounds like it is just inviting an issue if someone gets hurt hunting for it. I think about that before asking anyone for permission.
    The landowner liability protection law protects ALL landowners so Joe Bolrnstein will have to find a different ambulance to chase if a cacher were to be injured on your property. We have a cache placed here at our home that I wouldn't have placed but for the law and its protection.
    Sometimes the road less traveled is less traveled for a reason.

  7. #27
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Rockland Me
    Posts
    436

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    Now I am really confused. Does that mean that someone who trips in my driveway can never sue me? ( I won't have to shovel so much then. ) What is the difference if they are on a caching mission? If this info is getting into your hourly fee, than don't respond. ha

  8. #28
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    So. China Maine
    Posts
    1,588

    Default Land use law and liability 101.

    No problem with the questions. The law protects landowners from liability for people who come onto their property for recreational activities. When the law was being debated it was initially proposed that the liability protection would only protect the landowner from claims of people who were specifically invited onto property for recreational activity, hunting, snowmobiling, ATV's hikers etc. The final law protects you from suit from people who may not have permission, ie, trespassers.

    But it's all about folks doing recreational things whether invited or not, whether your land is posted or not. The intent of the law was to provide a level of comfort for folks concerned about allowing people to use their land. Without this law there would be few snowmobile trails, hiking trails and probably very restricted use of preserves and other similar properties. CMP and IP were instrumental in the law's passage as they had spent a lot of time defending BS lawsuits.
    Sometimes the road less traveled is less traveled for a reason.

  9. #29
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Rockland Me
    Posts
    436

    Default

    Thanks so much for that information. I have a marsh/skating pond on some land that people use, ( uninvited) and that was always a concern that they would break through the ice or something there. Also, it could be a good cache area now that you have explained the law to me. Very interesting....thanks.

  10. #30
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Unity, Maine
    Posts
    3,866

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    Incidentally . . . I believe Florida Light and Power "owns" most of the right of way with some of the power lines in CMP's territory . . . at least this is the entity that we (the ATV Club) need to contact to get permission for routing trails.
    "Courage is not the absence of fear, but the realization that there is something more important than fear."

    "Death is only one of many ways to die."

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