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Thread: The Nature Coservancy Infiltration.....ForestDefenders in Flesh and Blood

  1. #21
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Solon, Maine
    Posts
    5,940

    Default

    Great article! Very informative.

  2. #22

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    One of my caches was removed by the infamous Daniel Grenier back in 2007. Hes out of the Brunswick office and back then, was at least nice enough to offer me the ability to drive to his office and obtain my container back. I emailed back and forth with him and he was pretty clear about the reasoning behind not having caches in "their" areas without permission. The particular cache in question was located at the Rachel Carson Salt Pond which is basically a large tide pool on inlet along Route 32 in Chamberlain / New Harbor. Granted, I was new to caching, but the cache itself was well above the high tide line and in a fixed bouldery location where there would be no geotrax or any disturbing of flora/fauna. I kept the emails for some reason. Here they are...
    Subject: RE: RE: "Cooper Cache" (GCZGCP) - Location: N 43° 52.812 W 069° 29.007
    > Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 21:06:39 -0500
    > From: dgrenier@TNC.ORG
    > To: mastersonc@hotmail.com
    >
    > Dear Corey,
    >
    >
    >
    > The Nature Conservancy is a private, non-profit conservation organization that owns and manages more that 250,000 acres in Maine. We are dedicated to the preservation of the plants, animals, and natural communities that represent the diversity of life on Earth by protecting the lands and waters they need to survive. The Conservancy works towards this goal through the identification, protection, and continued stewardship of habitat for rare species and the best examples of all native plant and animal communities, and the protection of large landscapes. Given our focused biodiversity conservation mission, the Conservancy takes a precautionary approach to human uses on the lands we manage.
    >
    >
    >
    > For The Nature Conservancy, stewardship is as dynamic and challenging as the wide variety of species, natural communities, and landscapes that we are trying to sustain. This is not as simple as "managing" property, but rather as complex as understanding natural life cycles, ecological interactions, and the influence of human activities. The goal of The Nature Conservancy's stewardship program and compatible human use decision-making is to sustain the existing diversity of native species, natural communities and key ecological processes, and to restore them where they have been degraded or lost, while allowing for compatible human uses where possible and appropriate. To this end, geocaching is discouraged in function of potential (and actual) site disturbance that lie at odds with our mission.
    >
    >
    >
    > Most geocaches are set up without our permission, which is infringement upon us as landowners. More importantly, it's not how geocachers are supposed to behave. The Groundspeak Company (i.e., www.geocaching.com), and other geocache sites, ask people who set up geocaches to get permission of the landowner prior to initiating any caching activities. Something you did not do... Know that there are instances where we do allow geocaches, but on a limited case-by-case basis, where we can deem that such activities can be conducted in a location and manner that avoid disturbance or alteration to any significant natural feature or area of ecological concern.
    >
    >
    >
    > I will hold your cache at the Brunswick office until spring, so no rush or worry on this point. If you have more questions or would like to discuss our position further, please give a call. I'd be happy to talk more.
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > Sincerely,
    >
    >
    >
    > Daniel J. Grenier, M.S.
    >
    > Land Steward
    >
    >
    >
    > The Nature Conservancy in Maine
    >
    > 14 Maine Street, Suite 401
    > Brunswick, ME 04011
    >
    >
    > Tel. 207-729-5181 ext.283
    >
    > ________________________________
    >
    > From: Corey Masterson [mailto:mastersonc@hotmail.com]
    > Sent: Wed 11/21/2007 8:46 AM
    > To: Daniel Grenier
    > Subject: RE: "Cooper Cache" (GCZGCP) - Location: N 43° 52.812 W 069° 29.007
    >
    >
    > I'll see what I can do to get there but I don't know how quickly it will be as I live in Bangor and only get down there once a month or so. As for no geocaching though, is there a specific reason for this? It certainly doesn't harm the land in any way as geocachers all respect the nature and leave things as they were. At most, it attracts a visitor to a place they may not have known ever existed, teaches them a quick bit of history, and sends them away with a new appreciation for nature.
    >
    > Was this discovered through the site and complained about or found by a non cacher / cleaning crew?
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > ________________________________
    >
    > Subject: "Cooper Cache" (GCZGCP) - Location: N 43° 52.812 W 069° 29.007
    > Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 14:57:38 -0500
    > From: dgrenier@TNC.ORG
    > To: mastersonc@hotmail.com
    >
    >
    >
    > Dear Mr. Masterson,
    >
    >
    >
    > Your unsolicited geocache has been identified on the Rachel Carson Salt Pond Preserve; property owned and managed by The Nature Conservancy in Maine.
    >
    >
    >
    > "Cooper Cache" (GCZGCP) - Location: N 43° 52.812 W 069° 29.007
    >
    >
    >
    > As a policy, The Nature Conservancy in Maine does not allow geocaching on our preserves. I have asked the Groundspeak Company (i.e., geocaching.com) to stop advertising this location on their site and have removed the cache from the conservation area. Feel free to stop by the office to pick up your cache. We are open Monday through Friday from 9 am to 5 pm; however, it would prove best to call first to make sure I'm in Brunswick (I travel frequently in function of my work.) I'll assume that if I don't hear from you by the end of January that you do not want your cache, and will properly dispose and recycle the materials as a consequence.
    >
    >
    >
    > If you have any questions, please feel free to contact me by e-mail or phone (207-729-5181 ext 283). Thank you for your cooperation.
    >
    >
    >
    > Sincerely,
    >
    >
    >
    > Daniel J. Grenier
    >
    >
    >
    > ________________________________
    >
    >
    > Daniel Grenier
    > Land Steward
    >
    > dgrenier@tnc.org
    > (207) 373-5283 (Phone)
    > (207) 729-4118 (Fax)
    >
    > nature.org <http://nature.org/> The Nature Conservancy
    > in Maine
    > 14 Maine Street, Suite 401
    > Brunswick, ME 04011
    >
    >
    >
    >
    There is a very fine line between 'hobby' and ‘mental illness'. ---Dave Barry

  3. #23
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    China, Maine
    Posts
    240

    Default

    Mr. Grenier states in his email that there are instances where they do allow geocaches. I wonder if anyone on this forum knows of any of those caches in Maine and what the circumstances are.

  4. #24
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Brewer,ME
    Posts
    2,576

    Default Wow..

    That guy makes Roxanne Quimby look like a chainsaw wielding, skidder driving tree hater....

    What gets me is that they don't OWN all of the land that they manage. I wonder how the real owners feel about caching. Or do they give complete control to TNC. I know so very beautiful areas have been closed due to their relentless persecution of caching.
    Happy Trails!
    Yeah it's a Jeep thing!


  5. #25
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    [x, y, z, t]
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mainiac1957 View Post
    That guy makes Roxanne Quimby look like a chainsaw wielding, skidder driving tree hater....

    What gets me is that they don't OWN all of the land that they manage. I wonder how the real owners feel about caching. Or do they give complete control to TNC. I know so very beautiful areas have been closed due to their relentless persecution of caching.
    What about virtual caches?
    Moo

  6. #26
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Brewer,ME
    Posts
    2,576

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by cano View Post
    What about virtual caches?
    Now that would be a good question. An earthcache perhaps. That would be hard for him to refute given it could be right on a trail with no bushwacking required.
    Happy Trails!
    Yeah it's a Jeep thing!


  7. #27
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Bangor, ME
    Posts
    6,061

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    I am quite certain you need permission and a contact person in order to get an earthcache approved.

    No new virtual caches are allowed, but it is possible the land on which one exists could change owners. I do believe some virtuals have been removed at landowner's request.

    Waymarks are another option, as would be a multi with virtual stages inside the property in question. While a cache like that could be "snuck in", especially if the posted and final coordinates were off-site, I'd think it would be best to honor the wishes of these landowners and keep all parts of caches off them.
    DNFTT! DNFTT! DNFTT!

    "The funniest thing about this particular signature is that by the time you realize it doesn't say anything it's to late to stop reading it..."

  8. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mainiac1957 View Post
    That guy makes Roxanne Quimby look like a chainsaw wielding, skidder driving tree hater....

    What gets me is that they don't OWN all of the land that they manage. I wonder how the real owners feel about caching. Or do they give complete control to TNC. I know so very beautiful areas have been closed due to their relentless persecution of caching.
    Exactly. Land "STEWARDS".

    I think we should go and massively award our Geocaching Favorite points to all the caches which were archived due to this! HA HA

  9. #29
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    Auburn
    Posts
    2,113

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    This has been a great discussion, so far! It's good to air out these concerns and work towards sorting out the truth.

    In the past, The Maine chapter of the Nature Conservancy has not been open to Geocaching. Their chief complaint is unauthorized placements. Cachers ignore signs that give contact information; Cachers pay no attention to signs that state "carry in/carry out" and refuse to "Stay on the Trail" and even start new trails.

    The Nature Conservancy is protecting land they feel they own. For example, Serious Tool was told that the land description his cache was placed on can be found in the York County Registry of Deeds - Book15291 Page 799-806, and in Book 4426 Page 64-65. Perhaps there's a surveyor in the group that can refute this claim. Or, Serious Tool could simply let us know who gave him permission to place the cache.

    The Nature Conservancy has identified 2 caches on neighboring properties that are directing cachers to access their land, creating unintended trails. They have asked Groundspeak to consider removing them as a matter of good faith. The Nature Conservancy has identified 14 other caches on lands they have a legal interest in but do not own. If I understand correctly, the disposition of the cache will be up to the actual owners. The Basin area is not a new purchase. This is the second time The Nature Conservancy has had to ask that caches be removed.

    As Dan said, "Whether we like it or not, the ownership of land permits the owner unlimited control of use of the land unless it violates local or other land use regulations. Period." A land owner is perfectly within their rights to allow snowmobiling and not Geocaching. To take this one step further: While CMP may have purchased a right of way to install power lines, the land owner is not required to expand the agreement to included Geocaching.

    The Nature Conservancy has allowed Geocaching on their lands in the past. There is a multicache in Mount Agamenticus, placed with permission. There are several Earthcaches, which I assume were placed with permission. There have also been CITO and event caches in the past. Geocaching has a lot to offer The Nature Conservancy. The partnership between the Androscoggin Land Trust and Maine Geocachers is a good example the good that can be accomplished. Last year, several Geocachers were honored for the stewardship and encourage by the head of the Maine Department of Conservation. Some of the Nature Conservancy's own know how much trash we recovered and value the trail building efforts.

    There are 100 land trusts in Maine. http://www.mltn.org/view_trusts-alphabetical.php Many of these organizations are eager to allow the public to champion land stewardship. How we present ourselves to the other land owners is up to each and everyone of us. Hopefully, enough of us can be the type of Geocachers that land owners hope to partner with.
    The farmer gave permission to place the cache in the field, but the bull charges.

  10. #30

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    I have a number of earthcache location on TNC properties and have found Daniel Grenier to be very helpful and good to respond to request. His issue started with complaint is unauthorized placements and the refusal of the owner to make modifications. In all cases when I have given them to him before submitting there have been minor modifications. The important thing is permission to place the cache, I have a folder of permissions for my caches and have been ask to show them by groundspeak in the past which is fine with me. If folks in the past had permission for all cache locations this discussion would not be taking place, IMO.
    We hate mindless caches placed in the woods without a reason, nothing but the cache in a plastic bag on a tree.

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